Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Navigating Uncertainty: Leadership Challenges in 2025
Dive into an engaging exploration of leadership evolution as we reunite after three years to reflect on the dramatic shifts in our understanding of effective leadership. From the lingering impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic to the rapid technological advancements reshaping our workplaces, we dissect how these changes have forced leaders to navigate complex challenges.
Our conversation spans the spectrum of emerging issues like the rise of micromanagement and decreasing trust among teams, effectively painting a picture of the current state of leadership. We ask critical questions: Is leadership an inherent trait, or can it truly be developed and learned over time?
By sharing personal stories and observing recent trends, we encourage our listeners to reflect on their leadership experiences and contribute their insights. We actively invite you to participate by sharing how your leadership style has transformed and what insights you've gained along the way.
Join us as we seek to understand the clues of great leadership and the qualities that shape inspiring leaders in today's dynamic environment. Your engagement helps foster a community of growth and learning. Subscribe for more discussions and insights, and we look forward to hearing from you!
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives. With Albert Joseph and Neil Thubron, this is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today, or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you. Welcome to the Leadership Detectives 2025. We are back. Good to see you, albert. How are you doing? Yeah, good to see you. How are you Been a while? I'm outstanding. Thanks, mate, I'm outstanding. It's February 2025. And the last time the microphone was out and we were on this Zoom for the leadership detectives was back in September 2021. I just can't believe it was that long ago, can you?
Speaker 2:That's frightening. I mean, you and I have met up socially. We've done some things, we've been chatting and stuff. But if you'd have said to me it was three and a half years, I wouldn't have believed it. I wouldn't have believed it.
Speaker 1:It's insane. You know, we were just talking off camera, in inverted commas, off camera, about the fact it was so long ago and so much has changed. I mean, crikey, you were in your 50s last time we trained.
Speaker 2:I was in my 50s and you're reaching that milestone very soon. I know I am.
Speaker 1:You're right, not far off, but also you. You know I was thinking about it and reflecting on it to you. Know I was going to say preparing for this podcast, but you know our preparation has always been um, kind of on the fly, because we work better that way. But you know, leadership in the world has changed so much since 2021 because COVID was still a real thing then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you're right. Leadership changed. The circumstances under which they've had to lead has changed. In three and a half years, we're looking at wars out there, neil. That I don't think we foresaw back in 21.
Speaker 1:True, yeah. So there's the global conflicts. There's the economic ups and downs we've been through since, you know, 2023, when inflation went high. That needed some really strong leadership in businesses. And then the changes of the political environments during 2024 and the uncertainty last year and the uncertainty last year, which again needed some incredible leadership in businesses. And and they're now navigating through what's what's coming up now with whatever terrorists might be thrown out, political relationships that might be built. Yeah, it's a, it's a. It's a tough time. It's been a tough few years to be a leader in, in business and in any walk of life yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker 2:I think also, if you look at business and what's affecting the world, you and I came through in a technology career, yeah, but that technology is hitting everybody more than ever before, right. So you know how come we've got three minutes into this and we've just said ai for the first time, right, but that's a whole new thing that's happening in the world, right? So things are different. It's affecting jobs, it's affecting economies, it's affecting livelihoods. I mean, it's really interesting to see what that's going to do in the world and also how that's going to affect the kind of people that leaders are leading and the way that they're managing those people.
Speaker 1:Right, because it's going to be a very different world yeah, and I'm I think we've got another episode there leading an ai world. Actually, that would be a great episode for us to do. Yeah, what is what I'm? What I'm also reflecting on is back in 2021, everyone was working at home. Yeah, you know, we were still working at home.
Speaker 1:Uh, very few, very few people were going into the office. We're all wearing masks still, um, and we've kind of gone from and leadership had to take into account. How do we manage people when they're at home, when they're, um, struggling with families being around all the time and all that sort of thing, and I guess it feels like leadership was quite soft and understanding then in the workplace and in the last three years it shifted to a bit harsher leadership. You know companies like jp morgan saying everyone back to the office yeah, I've certainly. You know, with all of the coaching I've been doing in the last few years of senior people within big organizations, but business leaders running their own businesses, I've seen some pretty toxic leadership as well of you know people's bosses or the way that investors or chair people or executive chair people are treating their board. So I don't know whether it's. You know, during COVID it was a bit softer and now it's got to be harsher. What have you seen?
Speaker 2:The thing that I've noticed is, because this is going across all the seniority, right, you know, I've got colleagues who are in very senior roles and are being told you will be in the office for four days, yeah, and one of the things that's becoming evident is there seems to be a lack of trust, right, a lack of trust and a lack of gosh. You and I managed through the days where we even went into empowerment, right, and we had people making their own decisions and running their own teams, and now it's I can't believe it's getting to it's almost getting to a level of micromanagement from a senior level. That just seems crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm seeing that. I'm seeing that. So where do you think that lack of trust is coming from?
Speaker 2:I think there's probably enough anecdotal evidence where people are believing that that is the norm. So the fact that somebody might be getting up late and not getting on to work, or that people are going shopping and not and I think there's enough anecdotes that has created this belief that that is the general behavior of someone working from home. I tell you I'm more productive working at home, guaranteed right. I'm talking to you here. I can be in my study with my speakerphone, I've got all the space I need, I've got all the thinking time I need. I don't have any commuting time. I guarantee that I can be more productive. Or I can go into an office and be next to people that I'm probably on a call with right or interrupting other people that are on a call, so I don't feel as open as I can be because I have to then have a headset and stuff. I can't believe that I'm unique in saying that I can be more productive at home than I can be in an office, but I still want that personal connection with people, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the micromanagement and lack of trust there's that you know are they? Are they working and earning them up the for the hours that we employ them for and earning the money we pay them? I guess what? What I've seen, I think, is driven by fear. I think, and even with unemployment levels at a low, so employment at a high, I still think there is fear out there amongst senior leadership around losing their jobs and I think that drives some of the micromanagement and behaviour, certainly some of the toxic environments. I see I've not had a conversation with someone to say are you fearful of losing your job? But my presupposition is that that's the reason why there's some of this fear and micromanagement going on, especially and the other thing I found so especially in people in their 50s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, almost as if I'm not sure I'm employable if I lose this job, I'm in. Yeah, no, I think so. I think you're right, whilst you're not supposed to be able to bring age into the decision of recruiting or not recruiting. We know that it does right um. Come back to the thing you said about um. Are people spending their time at home benefiting the company and the corporation? There's a great leadership piece for us there right now. Are we looking at people's outcomes or are we looking at whether they're working 37 hours this week, right?
Speaker 1:well, and there's there's a question right as well, when we've talked about this in one of our other episodes is um, and what I've seen with a number of ladies I coach is they're not clear on the outcomes they want from their teams. Yeah, but their teams aren't clear on what good looks like. Yeah, um, you know, I've I've talked about that so much over the years and it comes up over and over and over again when someone's disappointed with someone not doing what you want them to do. I keep doing inverted commas and I don't know whether we're going to do the video, but you know they're disappointed because expectations haven't been set well and correctly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I agree, I agree. Anyway, listen, we haven't spoken for three and a half years, right, or to our audience, to three and a half years. What have you been doing for three and a half years? Because I know it's more exciting than what I've been doing three and a half years.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I mean from a from a work point of view, because obviously I'm always doing lots and lots of things in the adventure world. So, like last year, I sailed from Australia to China, which is a big, big, amazing challenge, and I've got two grandkids now as well, and I know you've got one as well, which Indeed. So we weren't granddads actually. Well, I suppose actually I had a granddaughter, but we weren't granddads actually. Well, I suppose actually I had a granddaughter, but we weren't both granddads, but no, so I've been really busy developing my executive coaching skills.
Speaker 1:To be honest, I went through Henley Executive Coaching, so that was an amazing course to do, quite intense, quite academic, and I'm not academic, so that was a test for me to be able to write reflective essays and, um, do that kind of thing which you know I'm just not natural for me. Uh so, and then developing my exec coaching business, still doing lots of sales training, still doing lots of coaching with businesses, um, so so, yeah, that it's. It's probably the exact coaching and coaching more business owners that I've I've been doing in the last few years so have you changed those that you're coaching?
Speaker 2:have you changed your target audience or you?
Speaker 1:yes, I guess. Yeah, yes, I guess. So I mean, I get asked that question regularly by people who say what's your target audience now? And actually my answer is any One who wants to develop, transform, be the best version of themselves. They want to be. So, around leadership. That might be individuals that run their own businesses, it might be people inside existing companies. It might just be someone who, like a guy I coach, who reaches out and pays for me himself, pays for me himself it's not paid by the company to help him navigate his way through his career and be the best version of as a sales director he can be. Yeah, so, yeah, it's a bit of a variety, but it's, I guess the commonality is high performing people who want to be better than they they are today yeah, and you're still doing team sessions as well.
Speaker 1:Right, because I know this week leadership team sessions and, yeah, I'm all over the world as well because I work with some global companies. I've done a lot of travel recently as well, which is, which is fab. You know, it's great to still be valued, yeah, um well, so what about you? What? How would you summarize your last three years?
Speaker 2:well, when we, when we did our last recording back in september, I was, I think, probably about four or five months into a full-time role, so I went back to work full-time. Yeah, after being self-employed for a couple of years, I went back to work full-time, um, and I'm enjoying doing a role where I just, to me, it's just about adding value, making a difference, and I'm not hung up about career and I'm not hung up about promotion, right? My focus is how can I make a difference? And I'm not hung up about career and I'm not hung up about promotion, right? My focus is how can I make a difference at what I do? My focus is how can I help the team that I work with, right? So, looking at, are the team enabled the way they need to? They use me as an escalation route so I'll deal with the stuff they don't want to deal with.
Speaker 2:You know, again, this is part of a leader's role is to be a buffer between the organization and the role that they do. So I've just been doing that for three and a half years, right? So I've really enjoyed in that job just focusing on now it's delivery of a program, so we do have an outcome that we're looking for in that program, and of course, that's my main objective, but but within that is also also the functioning of the team, the development of the team. You know that's quite important to me, and hopefully the team, if they will listen to this, will tell you. You know that's still the case.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I've been enjoying that Lifewise. As you said, right, I did hit a significant milestone which you very kindly made sure you helped mark for me, with a surprise gathering of our ex-buddlings, which was really good. One of the things that does come to mind about the work that I've been doing, though, and you'll love this. Actually, I don't think you and I have spoken about it. One of the programs that they brought to the company probably a year ago, actually was a program about trust it's called the speed of trust, and they actually met with steven covey, because steven covey put the program together, right, I mean for you and I so steven covey.
Speaker 2:He died quite a few years ago now well, the steven covey that they met with has still got his name on this, and apparently, with him.
Speaker 1:So because his son's running the business, I think right.
Speaker 2:So, uh, and it was outstanding piece of work, by the way, right, it was looking at and maybe we can. We could do some work on this some other time, right, because it's a bigger topic here. You know, one big thing about trust was really interesting was, if you work in a trusting environment, how much easier is your job and how much more certain is your job if you work in a trusting environment, how much easier is your job and how much more certain is your job if you work in a distrusting environment. You're documenting everything that happened. You're making sure you've covered your backside. You're making sure you can track everything that took place and didn't take your second guessing what someone's going to do or someone's going to say. That becomes a very stressful environment and probably not a great outcome for both parties. Right.
Speaker 1:No, it's a horrible place to work in an untrusting environment, because the other flip side of that is a blame environment. You know, that's what comes with. I guess it would be an interesting topic to talk about actually. So let's put a pin in the, uh, the trust piece. Actually, given what we said that there's a lack of trust makes sense to do an episode on, um, how do you, how do you build a culture of trust? Yeah, uh, because I think knowing whether you've got trust in a business is one thing, but how do you build that culture? Yeah, yeah, would be really interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, just, we asked, when we put out, uh, the announcement that we were going to do this, that we, um, we wanted questions or things that people would like us to talk about, yeah, and we had a, uh, a comment come back which was could we simplify what is leadership? Yep, and then the second part of that question is it inbuilt or can it be learned, which I think is a fantastic question? So, thank you for the question, but, um, how would, how would you answer that first part what is leadership?
Speaker 2:I think you and I talked about this when we did the what's the difference between management and leadership? Episode one, episode one, and I don't think it's any different now than we would have said when we were recording four years plus ago. Right, it is about the. Leadership is about setting the vision, setting the direction, you know, making sure the team are capable of what they need to do. I think we use the phrase that you and I have seen when we were coming through our management careers that management is about doing things right and leadership is about doing the right things. So I guess that's where I'd start. What do you want to add to that in terms of your views?
Speaker 1:It's a big question where I'd start. What do you want to add to that in terms of your views? It's a bit it's a big question. Um, so the way, the way I've always thought about leadership is, it is about looking forward, it's about strategy and whenever I talk you know, whenever I'm coaching managers who want to be more senior it the focus on on that leadership is about yeah, it's about further looking again, instead of looking at this month or this quarter, you're looking at next half or next year and you're building strategy and plans for that.
Speaker 1:I think that's that's part of leadership. It's not all of leadership, because also, leadership is, yeah, as you said, about making sure your team know what they're going to need to do, that they're motivated to do it, they've got the resources available. I mean, when you're leading a small business, the vision and stuff is one thing, but you've also got to make sure you've got cash flow and you've got um, you know you, you've got the investors lined up and you're building relationships and partnerships with the, so you're doing the things that other people in the company aren't doing because they're running the business. Yeah, yeah. So those are the how I'd answer it, but then I love. The second part of the question is is it inbuilt or can it be learned? So what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:when you and I started our career, did we set out to be leaders? I didn't set out to be a leader. I don't know about you. I didn't set out to be a leader. I I set out to do a job and along the way there were bits that I enjoyed working with a team and looking at how I could motivate that team to be the best. You know, I was part of a role where I was running a particular division and that was one of many other I think there were 17 others running that same division and I was one to be the best of it. So along the way, did I develop skills and techniques?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's a straightforward answer. I think there has to be the substance of a leader within you that you can build upon. I don't think this sounds wrong. I don't. I'm going to say I don't think everyone can be a leader. I think there has to be a foundation within you, but then it does take. It does take experiences and it takes learning of techniques and capability to be the best leader you can. It's my personal view I do. The more I talk it through here, the more I feel confident saying I don't think everybody could be a leader in all environments.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to disagree with you, okay, um, but my first answer when I was asked this question back in I think it was about 2012, I was asked to run a project to look at what makes an inspirational leader. Because I was, I was getting lots of high ratings for being inspirational and stuff like that, and I was asked to basically run a project for emir and the question I was asked was can this, was inspirational leaders, call it leaders, can leadership is it? Are you born with it or can you be taught it? And my answer was no, you can't be taught it. You're born with it. You've got to want to be a leader, you've got to have that motivation.
Speaker 1:And and then I went away and thought about it and it took me a couple of days of thinking about I did have a few sleepless nights over my answer because I wasn't 100% happy with my answer. And I wasn't 100% happy with my answer. And then I thought, actually, in situations in life, whether that's with your family, with your sports team, with your church, with your whatever it might be in the work environment, with your coffee group, at some point everybody's probably been a leader or had to lead. And so when I think this is different to the business environment, but I think, in general, the the raw materials to lead, if the motivation is right and the um, yeah, the situation is right is it is probably there in everyone, um, but not everybody.
Speaker 2:There's a different point, though not everybody wants to lead and there are a lot of people out there who don't want to lead and are very, very happy being led but if you look at exercises that we've run let's take the sales training that we've run we've had teams in groups, we put them into working groups and we've positioned people in uncomfortable places where they've had to lead that exercise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and some have stepped up to it and absolutely loved it, and some have done everything they can to get away from that. Yeah, but it's not always the ones that have tried to steer away from it that haven't got something out of it. Sometimes people have steered away, done it and then gone. Wow, I didn't think I could have that impact, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:no, I agree, I think that's so. If you take in that type of environment where you're running a leadership exercise, if you take the dominant leader out of it, yeah, then someone else has to step up, yeah, and it's it. So that's what I mean. Not everybody wants to step up because some people will. Some people shouldn't step up. Who do step up, by the way, you know?
Speaker 1:yeah, and we've seen that many times yeah, yeah but real leadership, I think, is something that, because you can, as you know, right, we right you can be a leader without the pips, without the title, without the director of or whatever it is. You don't have to have the title to be a leader. You can be a leader from within. Yeah, yeah, exactly, just because you are motivating, inspiring, setting the vision and have that belief in whatever you're trying to achieve, whatever it might be.
Speaker 2:So you've got two conflicting views here, right? Well, not conflicting. You and I are not perfectly aligned on our beliefs around that, right? So for those listening, tell us what you think, guys. Yeah, give us some comments back right. Give us examples and tell us what you think about leadership. Is it ingrained in a person and you are, you aren't. Can it be taught? Is it a combination of? Tell us what you think, guys, because it'd be really interesting to hear how people feel about that and and consider it from you being a leader, but also you've been led well and maybe not so well in certain situations and look at that and say what you think's made a good leader in that. That's what we're going to build up here, yeah great idea.
Speaker 1:It'd be great to get that depth of knowledge from people listening to this. And you know, just just leave comments and feedback.
Speaker 2:It'd be great to hear and your and your own personal feedback. If you're a leader, did you set out to be a leader and how did that happen? Right? So anything you want to throw in, guys, it'd be really good to hear. You know, neil and I look out to to get guests on to to join us on our podcast and you know, and some of that, we get varying views from those guests. Right, we've had military, we've had, you know, public, we had a fire uh fighter, we've had hr representatives, right?
Speaker 2:so so we'll look at other guests going forward as well and and you can guide some of what kind of guests we get as well by giving us your comments there that we can look at yeah, I think that's great, great and, at the end of the day, the reason it's called the leadership detectives is because we're hunting for clues in great leadership that we can share with our audience.
Speaker 1:So, and those clues don't have to come from us, no, they can come from any source. So please do share them and with us, and yeah, so I think hopefully that's helped answer that question or at least it's posed a provocative thought that might make someone go and find out a little bit more and explore a little bit more. Yeah, because I mean, personally I love leadership, I've always loved leadership. Interviewed for a podcast, probably, uh, so it was for the coaching skills for leaders podcast that yana yana interviewed me, yeah, um, which is my one of the other podcasts I do, and we talked about leadership and actually I I've been leading since I was a kid, and so I just, you know, there are those people who step forward and like to lead and and support and help people get to where they want to get to, and I guess I've always been one of those, and so some people might more reluctantly have to step forward to lead, but everybody has that opportunity.
Speaker 2:The interesting thing about it is, the more you talk about it, the more I realise what a big thing around leadership and we've talked about it before the more you talk about, the more I realize what a big thing around leadership and we've talked about it before is accountability, and you need to be willing to be accountable right and when we uh, we, we, I think we, we looked at the book, didn't we? From um extreme, um extreme, what was it?
Speaker 1:extreme leadership, extreme ownership by ownership yeah right.
Speaker 2:So there's a great example. Because you, I don't think you can decide to lead and be a leader unless you're willing to be accountable because that's 100.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah, very, very good point, um, and that maybe, maybe that's what the difference is between good leaders, you know so, people who step up and take ownership and are prepared to be accountable, and those that step up, get the title, but then constantly blaming downwards on the ownership right, which is a bit weird right.
Speaker 2:We thrive on the accountability right. I'm quite happy and my team know this on the job I've done for the last few. I'm quite happy to be at the front if the bullets are flying. I'd have a problem with that, right, because we've worked on together what we're going into and I'm very happy you know to take the front and take yeah, be accountable for what comes either way, right? Um, and that's quite good because that's part of your leadership training as well. I think part of your leadership training will need to be how you feel about accountability and ownership, and that's not the same as blame, by the way. Guys, don't confuse accountability with blame.
Speaker 1:That's a different thing yeah, well, accountability is almost the opposite, because if you're accountable, you own it and and therefore there is no one to blame apart from you. Yeah, go right and actually there's no blame because if it doesn't go right, you just learn yeah, get it right exactly um.
Speaker 1:so yeah, hopefully that's um been a useful opening episode to kick us off and and get us going. And please, yeah, please, do leave your comments. Love to hear from you to see what you'd like us to talk about, what you think about this, a guest you'd like us to have on that would be great to hear.
Speaker 2:You should have seen, guys, that leading up to today, we've been putting out episodes, previous episodes that we've recorded. Um, some of those are, in fact, all of them, I think, are as relevant now as they were before. Um, there's no reason why we couldn't do some of those subjects again. Just because it had that topic doesn't mean there isn't a different discussion to have about that same topic, right? So again, let us know. I think, what have we got Neil? Fifty, six episodes or something crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So. So if anybody wants to look through their guys and say, look, could we revisit that? We can, we can just take a look at it and see if we can, we can come back and give you a different view on it or or endorse what we've already said about it there, and then that would be really good. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So so look, bottom line, thank you. Thank you for listening. Great to be back on here and, yeah, look forward to more of these conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and thank you to all the comments we got when we said we were coming back Right. I mean talk about putting the pressure on guys, everybody telling us how you're really looking forward to what we're going to bring you Right. So I hope the expectations were set at the right level in terms of what we're going to, what we're going to bring you right. So I hope the expectations were set at the right level in terms of what we're going to, uh, what we're going to do. But, yeah, really good to be back and we'll be, uh we'll be seeing you on a regular basis as we go forward yeah, thanks, mate, catch up soon good talk to you.
Speaker 2:Take care all the best guys. Thank you for listening to the leadership detectives with neil thubron and albert joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectivescom for all the episodes and more resources and support.