Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Navigating Toxic Leadership: Strategies for Resilience
In this episode, we delve deep into the challenging landscape of toxic leadership. Toxic leaders can manifest in various ways, often leading to detrimental impacts on team dynamics, individual morale, and overall productivity. We explore the core characteristics and behaviors associated with toxic leadership and provide actionable insights on how to recognize these individuals in the workplace.
As we analyze the nuances of toxic behavior, we highlight the ripple effect these leaders have on both the immediate team and the broader organizational culture. We engage in enlightening conversations about essential coping strategies, emphasizing the importance of communication, empathy, and resilience when dealing with difficult leaders. You'll learn how to take ownership of your situation, document your experiences, set healthy boundaries, and when necessary, explore pathways toward a healthier work environment, either within your current role or through seeking new opportunities.
Join us for a candid discussion that’s packed not just with insights but also with encouragement and support, reminding you that you are not alone in these struggles. Tune in to discover valuable tips that can help transform your workplace experience, and be sure to share your thoughts with us!
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives. With Albert Joseph and Neil Thubron, this is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today, or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
Speaker 2:Good afternoon, welcome everyone. Welcome back to Leadership Detectives Looking for the clues to great leadership. So great to talk to you, neil good to see you.
Speaker 1:How are you? I'm pretty good mate. Actually we were just talking before we started. It's a Monday and I'm normally buzzing on a Monday, but I'm just a little flat today for some reason, not sure why, but just a little flat.
Speaker 2:It's funny actually, because Neil and I were talking in the prep and I said I was feeling the same as well. Now, apart from the fact that Neil and I do have some strange connection I'm not quite sure what that is we're both feeling the same at the same time. Uh, maybe it's because we're both July born.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's got something to do with it yeah, it could be, yeah, could be yeah but, it's got to do with the weather but anyway I'm on my stand-up desk to give me energy today yeah, that makes two of us as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to be honest, I've started using this quite a lot now and it does make quite a bit of difference. I don't know how many people out there are using stand-up desks. My son's got one where you can actually raise it up and put it down and do the whole thing yeah, me too yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I don't have that kind of budget, so that's fine no, it's not about not having the budget, it's about not spending the money. Yeah, so what are we talking about today? Albert um?
Speaker 2:interesting topic and I don't know how much it's going to land with people, but one I hope we can create some help for people, and that's talking about toxic leaders, toxic, toxic managers. Um, I think there's a topic there that I've heard mentioned a number of people in one way, shape or form or another, and I think now we can look at how it affects people, how it affects businesses and what we can do about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I think that's. That's the flow, I think, if we can kind of identify what it is and and why it's important to be aware of and then how to Potentially deal with it and what I've found I don't know whether you've seen that the last couple of years, I mean we've seen toxic leadership in our history. You know and um, I've you've worked for toxic leaders. You've worked for toxic leaders, but in the last few years I've been coaching a lot of people that are led by toxic leaders and I mean what we saw was mild compared to some of the things I've seen in the last few years uh, some of the people I've been coaching. So I don't know whether it's suddenly appearing more. Are you seeing more of it?
Speaker 2:do. What I'm saying is I'm seeing that it used to exist, I think, a lot more when we were coming through the ranks then I think most recently it seems to have got better, you know, with this, a lot more focus around people's mental health and how you treat people and all that kind of stuff. But it seems to be coming back out and I don't know if it's to do with. You know, people don't bosses, don't like people working from home. That's one topic you know that we've got to look at, but but it does seem to be that it's becoming more prevalent.
Speaker 1:Maybe we're just spotting it more, but my, my, it's out there I, I, I think, I think it's coming out and if, if you look at potentially well, let's look at what toxic leaders. And then why might there be toxic leaders? Because I think one of the reasons we're seeing more of it is because of some of the reasons why it might happen. Okay, um, okay. So. So if you were gonna describe how you would know you've got a toxic, I mean, most people would know they've got a toxic leader. But let's just drill in on a couple of things we might see in a toxic leader. What would be some of the things you you'd mention?
Speaker 2:if I go to the very highest level. I would say the very highest level is a lack of trust and respect for the way that they work with you. Right, some of the signs of that and, by the way I've got I've been talking somebody very close to me most recently who's experienced this for a number of months, right, I might tell you the story later about what they did about it, right, but but um, those signs, by the way, were were very. They actually landed me really well. One of the greatest ones was taking the credit for work that you're doing. You put all the effort in, you bring something forward that's going to add value for the company and they find a way to represent that as their own and not give you any credit. Now, you know you could represent as your own and give you credit, but they take the credit away. That's certainly one of the things that I've seen as a major yeah, so managing up, not down, is a is definitely there.
Speaker 1:I think ego arrogance, yeah that kind of thing are things that um come to mind. Um lack of empathy, yeah, any kind of understanding of people's situations or why they might be. You know why it's, why it's not okay for them to answer the phone.
Speaker 2:That's on saturday night yeah, yeah, you know that, you know, I agree, lack of empathy um, watch you on that. Deadlines right. Setting deadlines for people are just unrealistic, and expecting them to be able to get it done right either whether it's during the working week or whether I want this work done over the weekend that kind of unrealistic.
Speaker 1:I guess it falls into the same category as, as you know, expecting things well over and beyond yeah, and I think that aggressive behaviour clearly aggressive behaviour is part of being toxic, and the other thing I hear and see from people I'm coaching it's just complete inconsistency. Yeah, ups and downs, highs and lows, changes in direction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that whole mood swing thing. That then comes back onto the individual, right, so you have to take the brunt of the fact that they're having a bad day. I mean, neil and I are not having the greatest day today, right? We're not taking it out on our leadership detectives audience, right, that's our problem to manage and to get through, right?
Speaker 1:yeah yeah, yeah, no, we'll always turn up to do the best we can to serve, for sure. Yeah, um, and you know all of those things. I'm sure people recognize those things in people and anybody could do those at any one time. Toxic leaders do it all the time, yeah, and so they're, and they don't recognize they're doing it. I think most of the time. I don't think some, I don't think a lot of it is deliberate. I'm deliberately gonna upset my team. I'm deliberately gonna.
Speaker 2:They're just, they don't consciously, they don't understand the impact they're having yeah, it's actually interesting, right, there's a couple of things that comes to mind here, right, one of them is, from what you've just said, that it's not the individual, it's the behaviors. Right, and I know that's an important thing you and I talk about when we talk about giving feedback. Right, you can feedback on someone's behavior. You can't feed back to them about them as a person or about a personality or trait. That's not, that's not right or fair, but it's about behavior. So these people might, might, might, actually be very nice people, but it doesn't come across that way in the workplace or in these situations I heard this really interesting podcast the other day.
Speaker 1:It was a steven bartlett podcast. He was interviewing alex hormosy and alex hormosy was talking about one of his leadership team and everybody said that they are complete dick. And he says they behave, behaves like a dick, he's just, he's just rude, he interrupts, he's. So he called him into his office and said look, we've got to do something about this, because my whole team are coming in and telling me. I said I don't care if you're a dick, I don't care if that's who you are because you do a good job, but I just don't want everybody coming and telling me you're a dick, love it. So he said so what do I do? There's a dick? Well, you interrupt people. You tell people how to do their job. You know these kind of things. I said, ah, I didn't know I was doing that and he changed, but he had to have it pointed out to him. Yeah, these behaviors are not normal behaviors in the workplace when you're working with other people.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting way to come at this, neil, right, you might and and some of the people might say to us oh, don't be silly. I know it's well beyond that, but you might want to start from that place, guys. You might want to start from the point of view that the person you're talking about, that you feel is a toxic leader, does not have the intention to be toxic, but no one's ever told them, no one's ever fed back to them the impact that they're having and the negative impact it's having on you as an individual. Yeah, you know, the individual I mentioned earlier did feed it back and it didn't work very well, right, it actually got worse, but he fed it back, right I think there's so.
Speaker 1:So we're kind of getting on to how to deal with it. But there is a part which is why are people toxic? Have they always been toxic? Oh, is it something that you know? We said it's getting worse and I wonder whether that's because there's more hiring of toxic leaders or whether toxic leaders are created because of the pressure they're put under and therefore the fear they have. And I think it's a bit like the bully in the playground. Bullies fear losing control, they fear being found out, they fear losing their position as the bully, and I I wonder whether some of this it doesn't mean it's justified, but I wonder whether some of the behavior comes from in fact, I know it does. I know it comes from fear, fear of something I agree.
Speaker 2:I think I think there's definitely a part here about the pressure from above placing demands on an individual and, rather than putting their arms around their team and saying I need your help to get me through these challenges, they're lashing out and they're putting unrealistic demands on other people to help them achieve what they feel they have to achieve because they're getting pressure from above so and above you're talking about from a business point of view.
Speaker 1:Above you could be their boss, the shareholders, the chairman whoever it might be Above, could be at home. They could be going through something really difficult at home that is creating pressure in them that is then being taken out on the team below them. And this is why one of the things I always suggest to people I'm coaching is what do you think makes someone them so? And this is why one of the things I always suggest to people I'm coaching is what do you think makes someone put yourself in their shoes? What, what makes them behave that way? What's happening to them that's making them lash out or send that kind of aggressive email or ask you for something unreasonable? What, what's? And that's the first step. I always say just try and understand what's going on in the other individual's head.
Speaker 2:I think one of the worries is, neil, that we're saying and it's exactly why we're here it's leaders that don't have any other mechanism to manage that pressure that they're feeling on themselves, so their natural behaviour might be to lash out. If they knew how to handle that better, then their employees or their team would not be the subject of their attacks or their moods or whatever. So I think that's one of the, in my mind, that would be.
Speaker 1:The first thing is they don't know how to handle it right, so so their natural reaction is a it's an e-jerk reaction yeah, and I think, if, if you're on the receiving end I think that's what we can focus on here is on the risk, the people on the receiving end, what can they? What can they do? Um, and one of the things I always think is just just take a step back and look at the big picture. What's happening to this individual? You know what's happening with them and their boss, or them and the board that's causing them to react in this way, and could you try and understand what they're going? You know the stephen covey seven habits of highly effective people seek first to understand, then be understood. Yeah, yeah's a really powerful habit to to, to think about it's a good point.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't write off having that honest conversation with them first. It does mean that you have to be the one that's going to be um, looking to to try and solve the problem for them when you see it as their problem. But I I would say, take that opportunity to share what impact it's having on you, because they may not know that. Share what impact it's having on you and then ask if there's any way you can work better together to change the current situation.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting I actually had this real situation about a year ago with someone who very, very toxic leader, someone I was coaching and and I said to me, how about understanding them first before you try and be understood? So why don't you just how? I'll go and ask how are they, how are they coping? And uh, and maybe when was the last time someone asked them to go for a beer? And they actually did this? They sat down and said how are you feeling? And I said don't try and have any agenda. You're not trying to make a point about how you're feeling or the way the emails have been landing or how your team's feeling. Just go and understand them. And it was one of those light bulb moments when he really understood what was going on with his boss and they did go for a beer and they did get to understand each other better and, honestly, it was really powerful.
Speaker 2:That's interesting, guys, right? You just had two different points of views from me and Neil right. One that says sit down with them and tell them what impact is having on you. The other one says, deliberately, don't do that and just try to understand them. Use whichever one you think is right.
Speaker 1:Guys, use whichever one you think is right yeah, and I think that you've got to have. Honestly, don't, don't do it just off the cuff, right? So don't go listen to this podcast and go right, let's put an appointment in. You know, if you can get a bit of coaching, talk to other people about it maybe not people in the same team, because you'll just get maybe you'll get toxic views. Talk to someone outside and get a mentor's advice or something. Yeah, I think it's probably worth just reflecting actually for a moment on what is the impact on a business of toxic leaders Actually, because we've kind of jumped into a solution, but what's the what's the impact on a business and what have you seen? Because I know you've worked for some toxic leaders. What impact have you seen?
Speaker 2:You're not going to get the best out of the team. You've got a team of people there that are set to achieve the company's goals and the organisation's demands. You're not going to get the best out of that team because that team is not operating at its best when there's a lack of trust. You've got people that are having to over-engineer the way they work to make sure that they can cover themselves. So, for instance, you know documenting everything that happens, because you know that at some point you're going to get pulled up on something and you can say no, that didn't happen. At tuesday at three o'clock, you asked me this. At four o'clock I gave you this. So so you're not getting productivity and efficiency out of those people, apart from the the fact of the well-being and the happiness of that team.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, I mean it's a. It's a suck on morale. It's a suck on productivity. Yeah, um, it's a suck on morale. It's a suck on productivity. Yeah, it sucks employees out of the organisation because employees leave toxic leaders. You know they join.
Speaker 2:Join good companies, leave bad managers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I think it's productivity, productivity, morale, people leaving customers feel it and see it as well. So there's an impact on your customer base.
Speaker 2:High levels of sickness, stress that's productivity thing as well yeah potentially you're wasting money on legal issues because you're dealing with uh hr complaints and how much of that stress and confrontation do you think those people are taking home? They're taking that home to their partners and their families, right yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:So that's this ripple effect of dropping the stone in the pond, isn't there, you know? So what you're dealing with at work overflows into yeah. So yeah, maybe there's a higher divorce rate, or?
Speaker 2:it will absolutely or certainly there'll be conflict and there'll be impact guarantee.
Speaker 1:That's true. I hadn't thought of that. That is very true. And and I've done it, you know, in fairness, I've come home after having had, uh, you know what you feel is unfairly dealt with. Don't you feel like I've been? This is not fair. You know this is unreasonable. Yeah, and yeah, you do take it out, that's for sure. You know you're any human, is just human. Yeah, um so, let's go back.
Speaker 2:The company's definitely going to suffer, right companies? Come back to your question. The company's definitely going to suffer. Without doubt that will be having the impact back on the business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, increasing costs and reducing revenue the two biggest things and losing great talent, yeah. So, coming back to how to deal with it, we've talked about try and understand and try and help them understand you as well and what it means to you and your team and how you're feeling as well, and what it means to you and your team and how you're feeling. Um, what other tips would you have for someone who's having a? You know, because I'm looking at it from a coaching point of view and you're looking at it from a leader's point of view, so I think it'd be useful to get two perspectives I.
Speaker 2:I would certainly say typically in this kind of environment, there would be conflict, there'd be argument, there'd be point scoring. I know it doesn't sit well, guys, but I wouldn't go head to head. I wouldn't go head to head. I'll listen to what Neil and I have said about trying to find a way through it, a different way. If you go head to head, it's just going to accelerate and it's just going to accentuate. You're going to pile on top. They're going to catch you out on something, so you're going to make sure you catch them out on something. They're going to be. There will be retribution. Right, I know they shouldn't, but there will be retribution, so that will pile on top as well. So I would say, piece of advice try and find a different strategy rather than going head to head and saying I'm going to beat them right and I'm going to catch them out. I'm going to prove that they're they're not as good a manager.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's going to be the best way to approach it chances are you're not going to win, even if you escalate, because the guy above hired the guy below, probably, probably, and therefore that you're not going to get much of a a listening to if you, um, if you go up. In fact, I've seen that a couple of times in people I'm coaching. So the the head-on thing's really important. It's like in in any kind of martial arts or if you go head-on, you just end up with this massive collision. Yeah, you step to one side, let the momentum go through. It's much more powerful absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And don't get me wrong, right? I'm not saying don't confront it. That isn't what I just said, right? What I'm saying, guys, is don't go head to hon with the individual. Now. Every company should have a policy and should have a department, ie hr, that would ask you to come and report those things. I would absolutely advocate that you go and report it. As that you feel that it's toxic, I mean in some way it's probably a bullying, right? So I would go and report that as a bullying. I don't think it's. I don't think it's right to ignore the processes and the people that are available to you to help with that situation. So I absolutely would say to go and report it.
Speaker 1:Do you see? I mean, I know in IBM HR was pretty good. But what I see I shouldn't say but and what I see in other organisations is people are very afraid of going to hr because it gets just straight back to their boss. And that's not small organizations, that's some big organizations that they see hr as this um, yeah, just a post box basically to their boss, even with things like mental health and stuff like that which shouldn't be, it should be confidential and so on. But so with something like this, I don't know it, maybe have you seen that hr is a good way, good route to deal with this I've seen where it's worked and I've seen where it hasn't worked.
Speaker 2:Right. I've seen where hr have done the right things, have got the right people in for the right interviews, have escalated into the person's boss. Um, guess what that boss has said? This isn't the first time it's been brought to me, right, and, and you might find out then as well that you know you're not an individual case. But I've also seen cases where sorry hr listening into this, they have been post boxes, added little value or just reported it back to the manager and then you've become the subject of the issue, right, yeah, um, so I've seen it work, I've seen it not work.
Speaker 2:You know, guys, if it doesn't work, then even though what neil said there about that person might have been hired by that boss, one of your next strategies is to go to the boss above and say I've got an issue Right. Somebody happily would escalate you. There's no reason why you can't escalate your boss if you had to. But it's not always going to work out because they're going to defend their. They might defend their own employee. They may not. They may take a very umbrella view of the organization and say I've got to look at everybody in my team feeling good, not just the person that reports to me right um so. So I've seen it work. I've seen it not work. I would still say take that as one of your first approaches after you know you've gone.
Speaker 1:I tried to have some kind of um reconciliation discussion with the individual that if you have to use hr, I would start there okay, no, it's good, good tip, and if if that's worked you've seen that work, I think um then that's good practical advice for sure.
Speaker 2:Um I'm not surprised you're skeptical, neil, because I think it's failed. I've seen it fail more than I've seen it yeah, and I also.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I knew when we had started this conversation that that we would have two different perspectives on this, which is really helpful for the audience, right? Because, um, what I think? That's probably because, when I'm dealing with this situation these days, I'm coaching and what I'm trying to do is help the individual with with their mindset to deal with the toxic leader rather than to stop toxic leadership. Yeah, and so typically there's two things I ask people to do.
Speaker 1:First one is write down for me what is it that's in your control. So you've got all this stuff coming down. You're getting lots of emails being told to this what is in your control? You know that circle of control. You can't control what your boss does. You can't control your customers do. You can't control what the organizer, but you can control some things in there. And those two main things are you can control, uh, what you do, the actions you take and how you choose to feel.
Speaker 1:And the first one is you know the actions you take. Make sure you're just doing a bloody good job. You know you've got all this stuff going down. You know you're a good professional. You know what good looks like. You might be a leader, leading professionals or leading other leaders so make sure you're doing a good leading professionals or leading other leaders. So make sure you're doing a good job. So that's actions you take and you're not being transparent, so you're not passing all this crap downwards. You're managing, you're keeping it at your level and you're getting helping your team do the best job they can, because you've got to live with yourself. You've got to have that integrity to know you're doing all the right things, even if that's still not good enough. So that's the first thing. I don't know if you want to comment on that before I go on the second.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, if I could. Yeah, because, because one of my concerns would be that you end up sabotaging your own success. Right, because they don't appreciate what you're doing. You go, well, in that case, I won't do a good job. Yeah, right, and there's no one going to lose out of that except you, right? So take neil's advice right just focus on doing a great job and and make it even more difficult for someone to find fault with what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that what you can control, one of them is what you do and just do the right things and keep your integrity and do a great job. Then the second thing I appeal to, the feelings piece, is because we choose what we feel. So when you get a crappy email or a crappy phone call, that is an event, and the event then leads to a thought and you can. You can then pause there, you can go hang on. Is this the best thought for me at this moment to think this guy's a dick, I'm pissed off with this company, whatever it might be, or is it actually? You know, I'm just going to choose to think they're just venting, they've had a bad day, and so because the thought leads to a feeling, so if you choose the thought you want to feel, then you want to choose, then you'll have a different feeling and because feelings then leave to actions, then leave to results.
Speaker 1:So you know that when you get that and it's difficult, right, it's like that moment when, when you get the email, you start's difficult, right, it's like that moment when you get the email and you start responding, really, you know, and banging out all this aggressive, passive, you know, just having a go at the person back. If you just take a moment and go hang on a second right, what's the best thing for this situation or what could I be thinking now, that's going to be more powerful and how do I beat this person, and then that will change your feelings. Okay, I'm in control now rather than out of control. So it's a feeling of control rather than out of control, and then you'll have a better action, a better result.
Speaker 2:That's the other thing I focus on as well I I don't know if that's been news to anybody on this podcast right that you choose how you feel because you hear people. Things like you made me angry yeah and and and I get it.
Speaker 2:In the days before you, and I looked deeper into what we've got here, I understood that as well. By the way, anybody that I'm working with at the moment will be listening to this going. That's me, because I can react like that, right, and I have to stop and check myself, because my first reaction is to go head on right. Um, because you made me angry. Well, no, you put me in a position where I chose to be angry. Yeah, yeah, so it is a really difficult thing, yeah yeah, no so.
Speaker 1:So focus on that. Control the actions you take and the feelings you choose to feel, which means pause. You have to pause, even in a conversation. Or, if you're in a meeting, walk out, make space. You know, jocko willing talks about, um, taking a step back to look at the bigger situation. Yeah, when you're narrow focus, you're looking through the sniper sights all you can see is the target. You can't see the bigger picture. Yeah, um, so that. That those are two things. I really spend a lot of time when I'm coaching people on this those two things. And then the last one for me, which actually comes back to something you said earlier, is just make sure you document this stuff, cover your ass you know.
Speaker 2:I think you need to. I think I think you need to document the situations that you feel are tells you that you've got a toxic leader. I think you need to document those things right, because it's your perception, but you need to document that so you can share that and be clear. That is what you're seeing, fair or not? Fair? Right, it could be you probably not, but it could be you. So it's important that you do document that stuff.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, going on from that whole documenting thing, I think you also need to agree with the leader some, some boundaries and some activities that you're looking for by which they're measuring you and treating you in this way. So are you clear on the objective that they're attacking you for? They might be attacking you for having not done something correctly. Maybe you guys didn't have the same perception about what was expected, so don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you haven't got a toxic boss, if you think you have right, but just check it to make sure that the way in which you're gauging it would also be gauged the same by other people looking in.
Speaker 1:So that's a really good point, and not one I wrote down in prep, but it's so important, right? Is I hear from people? Well, you know, my boss hasn't told me what my goals are for the year, what my targets are for the year, what my objectives are. Yeah, and what have you done to go and either ask them or tell them what they are Right? So if there's a missing expectation, you know when you point the finger you maybe got three fingers pointing back at you. You know. So remember that when you point your finger at your boss, what should you have done to stop that situation from happening in the first place?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, exactly, I totally agree yeah, um, so I think there are toxic bosses are horrible to work for and it's funny. Actually, when I was doing a bit of research on this, there was a an ai search I did and it came up with how, how to beat toxic bosses. Don't try and beat toxic bosses. That is a waste of energy, waste of time and it's not good for anybody. But but the advice was basically document everything, set boundaries and leave the organisation. And, to be fair, right, you've got one life, your career. You spend a lot of time there. If you're in an environment that you maybe you love your job but you don't love your boss, ok, then make it work, find a way of making it work, choose your feelings, choose the actions you take, but if it's, you know, if if it's awful and you're working for a toxic boss, try and find another boss you can work for in the same organization or do something else.
Speaker 2:You've got control over that I was going to ask you that actually because you and I are not normally very defeatist, right? Yeah, and someone could see that as a defeatist strategy to find a different job well, and that assumes that winning is the, is the um, is the goal.
Speaker 1:And actually, is winning the goal? Or is happiness the goal, or is fulfillment the goal? Exactly so, so I think? I don't. I think because you've taken control. That's winning to me yeah, yeah, absolutely right.
Speaker 2:That's exactly where I am now. Right, you've decided to take a course of action, and that course of action happens to be that you're not going to work at this company any longer. That's not a bad thing, that's a great thing, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's great because, again, it's what's in your sphere of control. Yeah, so not saying leave, but you know, think about one life happiness, fulfilment, enjoyment. You know, get the most out of it.
Speaker 2:Neil, what about whether other people in the organisation are suffering the same? Is that a route you'd go down to investigate? Is it an area you'd stay away from?
Speaker 1:so this is about trying to beat the toxic boss now get get build up a posse.
Speaker 2:Um, is it? Is it? I mean it is. It is to help. It is to help understand whether you are a victim. So is it you're that's the victim, or is it that the manager is completely toxic, right? Um, yeah, what's your thoughts on that? Would you just leave it with yourself, or would you talk to other people about how you're feeling and whether they are suffering the same kind of impact?
Speaker 1:so there's a trust thing here. You've got to be really careful about what you say and who you say it to. But what I've seen with again with people I coach so I've seen it in you know lots and lots of organizations over the last 10 years I've been coaching so many different leaders is typically they're not the only one and they will sit in a coffee or in a over lunch and they will talk about the toxic leader. It will come up. You know what he's asked me to do now they she's asked me to do. You know, did you see the email they sent out? You know there'll be conversations going on. So if, if you've not got those conversations, then I guess maybe, maybe it's you. If it's not, if you haven't got other people there, I I don't know. Have you kind of gone and would you recommend to people to go and seek out to see whether there are issues?
Speaker 2:I think it's a bit like you said, right, you really want to be careful about who you're talking to, right, because you don't know where that person sits within the confidence of the individual that you are talking about. The other thing is, I certainly wouldn't advocate that you're trying to build, um, a vigilante gang that's going to go and deal with this. Right, that that's not going to work. Right, get trying to get other people on your side because things are not working out for you with this boss. I'd be very careful about then trying to get people on your side to to go against the boss, right, I think it be very dangerous.
Speaker 2:But if you just want to test how other people are feeling any impact and is it very similar to yours, then it could be useful for you to not feel so victimized about it. It might not change what you're going to do about it, but it might help your mind deal with some of the things that you're suffering. If you feel it's only you, that's got to be an even worse feeling, right, as opposed to now. Is it me? Is it my relationship with?
Speaker 1:this boss or is it this boss? Right, there are different things there, right? And it's interesting actually, because this guy was talking about he had a couple of colleagues and they were all feeling the same thing. He said, right, let's go and see our boss's boss. So they all went to see a, you know, as a group, and that was not a good move. It's this wasn't me coaching them either. This was something they did before I got involved, um, because they were told go and get on with your job, I'll deal with my employee. Um, you know, and thanks for that, you know, thanks for coming in here, but don't come and dark my door again with this topic. Yeah, so you know? You just you do have to be a bit careful about um, shop steward management.
Speaker 2:I think that's what I'd call that yeah, but you and I knew when we chose this topic this could be difficult to manage, right? Yeah, but it's all the more reason to talk about it because I genuinely believe there are people out there that are struggling with this kind of situation and finding a way to deal with it. I don't know if we've offered enough solutions or potential solutions for people to take forward, but at least you know that you're not a lone ranger in this situation. It is out there. It's out there probably more than it needs to be and it should be, and sometimes we just have to work within the cards. You know the hand, we've been dealt right and you just need to find a way through it.
Speaker 1:So yeah, exactly. So hopefully in all of that conversation and ramblings there's one or two nuggets that you might be able to take away and and use and that might help you with with the situations. And please leave your comments, thoughts, ideas. If you've got other ideas or things that have worked for you, then please share them with us in the in the comments we'd really love to hear those comments back, neil.
Speaker 2:I'd really love to hear from people either who definitely somebody who's found a way through it. That would be really useful for everybody else, yeah, um, or anyone that's got advice for people who find themselves in this situation, because guess what, neil and I might not have all the answers here. We're just looking for the good clues to great leadership. Right, there might be some clues that we haven't managed to spot my wife would say that you don't know everything.
Speaker 1:Neil, I know you think you do, but you don't know everything yeah, I won't reference what charmaine might say in that situation anyway, mate, so we draw a line under it there. Finish that, yeah, I think that's good.
Speaker 2:Hopefully we've given enough material there um for people to think on. Give us your feedback, guys, your thoughts as usual. Tell us what else you'd like to hear about. Yeah, neil and I'll be getting some other episodes together, but let us know what else you think, so yeah, thank you everyone.
Speaker 3:Cheers, guys, take care. Thank you for listening to the leadership detectives with neil thubron and albert joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectivescom for all the episodes and more resources and support.