Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Leading Through the Storm: Navigating Restructuring as a Leader
Restructuring. The very word can send ripples of anxiety through an organization. But what does it really mean to lead effectively through this challenging process? In this candid conversation, leadership experts Albert Joseph and Neil Thubron tackle the complex realities of guiding teams through organizational change.
Drawing from their extensive corporate experience, Albert and Neil explore how restructuring extends far beyond cost-cutting measures. They emphasize that effective leaders must deeply understand and genuinely support the strategic reasons behind restructuring decisions. Without this foundation, communicating with authenticity becomes impossible. As they note with refreshing directness: if you can't get behind the direction your company is taking, leadership during restructuring probably isn't for you.
The discussion provides practical guidance on balancing seemingly conflicting responsibilities: executing corporate directives while supporting affected team members, maintaining business continuity while managing uncertainty, and handling others' emotional responses while monitoring your own wellbeing. Their advice ranges from communication strategies and change management techniques to leveraging professional networks for departing employees and recognizing that restructuring sometimes creates unexpected opportunities.
Perhaps most valuable is their exploration of self-care for leaders during restructuring. They acknowledge the immense pressure of managing organizational change while supporting both leaving and remaining team members. Their recommendation? Don't hesitate to seek help, whether through HR resources, employee assistance programs, or coaching support. Remember the airline safety instruction: secure your own oxygen mask before helping others.
Whether you're currently leading through restructuring, anticipating changes ahead, or simply want to strengthen your leadership toolkit, this episode offers invaluable insights for navigating organizational transformation with integrity, empathy and effectiveness. The hosts even extend a personal invitation to reach out if you need additional support during your restructuring journey.
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives. With Albert Joseph and Neil Thubron, this is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today, or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
Speaker 2:Hey, good afternoon, neil. How are you doing you? Good, good stuff, I'm bad. Thanks, mate. Yeah, really good, excellent today, good stuff. Well, listen, you guys don't know, but I just heard from Neil, just before we started the session here, what he's been doing this morning, right? So, between a mixture of CrossFit coaching and whatever. I don't know why he looks the way he looks at. I'm looking on the screen because I'll be lying down on the sofa somewhere, right, it's good, good filters I use brilliant filters on this. No, good stuff, mate. Listen, great to chat to you this morning. But, yeah, so we've got. We've got an interesting session today, right, um? And whilst we're signed up, kind of upbeat and chatty here, I have to admit it's a difficult session to deal with, right? So the topic we want to talk about is leading through restructuring, um, and and it's a really difficult subject, I think, for for leaders to think about how they've got to manage the situation, the people and themselves.
Speaker 1:So, neil, that's what I thought it'd be good for us to spend some time on this afternoon, if that's good yeah, absolutely, and I it's interesting, I think you we're on the 3rd of March 2025 as we record this Yep, and I am seeing and hearing a lot of organizations going through restructuring. You know there's a lot in the news about certain industries where they're doing it, but personally I'm coaching some leaders that are going through it and I know of other companies that are going through restructuring. Actually, what, what do we mean by restructuring? Let's just get that clear to start with, because I think it's a fancy term yeah, it is a fancy term.
Speaker 2:I mean, listen, when you and I went through it, we we called it um, we called it redundancy, we called it resource actions, we called it all sorts but. But today's terminology seems to be restructuring, which my understanding of that is. We need to put a different structure around the organization to manage the challenges of managing our businesses under the current market conditions and requirements within the company. What's your thinking?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I think there's. So what you just said. There is a, I guess, politically correct answer, which is we've got a business strategy and the current structure doesn't support the business strategy, so we've got to make some changes to that strategy. Yeah, and the shareholders like to hear that, that there's a plan or the the owners, and it's about taking costs out as well. Yeah, and especially with technology, with AI, with that, you could call that restructuring, but it's taken taking human cost out typically, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean let's not dress it up in any other way. Right, it is a cost reduction exercise, but you could do it very aggressively and not thought out and just remove that cost, or you could restructure so put the company in a shape better to cope for what the future needs and and I think that's probably the first key for any leader going through a restructure is really understand the vision, the strategy, the why.
Speaker 1:You know what's what's happening here, why is it happening, how's this going to make the business better? Going forward, because? And and make sure you really understand that before you start going down the road of any conversations with individuals that's.
Speaker 2:That's a massively important point. Now, right, because there's a, there's a huge chance that most people listening to this have not made the decision to do the restructuring. It's very likely that a large part of our audience although we know we've got some very senior people listening a large part of our audience will be that they've been told the restructuring is happening and it's their job to help execute it yeah so if it was not their brainchild and their invention, then what you've just said is absolutely key that they get to understand why and to get on board with it.
Speaker 2:All right, yeah yeah, that's tough.
Speaker 1:that's tough. You've got to believe you can't be yeah, you've got to believe you can't be a transparent leader. You've got to believe in the direction. You've got to believe in the leaders, that they're doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Speaker 2:And that's an important point, right, why should I get on board with it? Why should I do that right? First and foremost, as a leader. You are an officer of the company and, painful though that is, your function in the company is to execute what the company is asking you to execute. Now, the reason I make that distinction is, by the time we get to end of this, we would have talked about them also being people managers. Right, they have a people management capacity as well as being a leader in the organisation, and those things can conflict a little bit sometimes.
Speaker 1:if you get too caught up in and I can tell you personally, I've been there before, I'm not so far away from it right now in being involved in that kind of exercise and you do think about the people involved, right, you can't help but do that which is interesting and let's make a note because we need to come, because at the end of the day, at the, it's gonna say at the bottom of this, you could say at the top of this, but at the end of the day it's a, it's people that are being affected. Yeah, and let's come back to that and how leaders, you know as human beings, might behave and think and feel about that. So the first thing we've just said there is be clear on why it's happening. Yeah, and if you're further down the organisation, or actually if you're reasonably high up the organisation, very important to think about the communication, of how you communicate down the road.
Speaker 1:Because I'm dealing with at least one person at the moment who's reasonably senior, head of a region in Europe going through restructuring, but no idea why he's not been given the picture, but no idea why he's not been given the picture. Yeah, um, I. I also work with another organization in europe where they're going through a restructuring. It's absolutely clear. You know, right down to the um, right down to the way the manufacturing plant shifts will work as a result. You know. So it's, it's a. That's very clear. So communication is, from whoever's making the decision down throughout the whole organization, is key I don't think we can over emphasize the communication, right, communicate, communicate, communicate.
Speaker 2:Now, as we talk through this, that doesn't mean that you have to completely share and divulge absolutely everything you know as a leader, because some of those things are not for your employees to to understand. That's for you to understand and to deal with. So when we say communicate, communicate, we don't mean be totally transparent and just throw everything out there, but you have got to keep your team up to date with what's going on. What's the timing of it? Why is it happening? Who's affected? That you can share? You might not be able to share names, but you can share communities you know. And and come back, never forget what neil's just said. Right up front, guys, think about the why you've got to be doing, the why a lot through this right, you know why is there a need to make a change? Why are those people affected? And other people might not be affected?
Speaker 1:because that's where other people's brains are going to be yeah, and I think the why and the process are the most important things to be communicated. You know how's this going to happen? Um, because, again I mean and you and I have been through this and you know, officers, leaders of organizations, are paid to make decisions, and they're paid to make decisions that are right for the company, for the shareholders, for the customers, et cetera, and so, once the decision's been made, communicating the why and then communicating the process are the most important things. Yeah, there's one other thing that I would add as well because I've seen this work really badly, and you have too is you need HR guidance and managing the communications in the right way, with the right professional support to do that, because we've seen situations where that's been done poorly and it's created very negative environment in the organization and it's cost the company a lot of money yeah, absolutely right, absolutely right.
Speaker 2:Um, I think the hr guys are there to give you the support as well. Right, it's a really difficult topic. Right, because I think people will will will struggle to understand. As a leader, you're standing in both camps. Well, you're probably standing in three camps, right. You're standing in the camp of I've got people I'm going to lose and I need to consider them and manage that and handle that situation. I'm standing in the camp of I'm going to have to carry on running this after those people have left the organization. You're standing in the camp of working with h HR to execute the policy that's having to be done. So it's a really difficult role as a leader. I don't know. I mean, I'd like to believe there's also people listening to us here, neil, that are not leaders, right, and and they probably need some appreciation as well that it's not an easy task as a leader executing restructuring.
Speaker 1:So what tips, then, can we help leaders with to help them through the complexities, the conflicts they might have of managing that type of situation where they've got their feet in many camps?
Speaker 2:You've already said it up front, right, in terms of I think you said the word transparency and we said about communication I think you need to have that transparency, but don't let that transparency turn into not having respect for the fact that this needs to be done right. So you're not sidelining it, as it's not my decision. So you know I don't support it. You have to support it right, and that sounds painful't support it. Yeah, you have to support it right. Yeah, and that sounds painful, guys, but you have to support it. The day that you decide you don't support it, you probably shouldn't be a leader in the organization, because that's your job right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And as soon as you say I've been told to do this or this is what, uh, the organization wants me to do, you've lost all credibility, yeah, and integrity as a leader it is so easy as well to say, look, I wouldn't do this, it's up to me, I wouldn't be doing it right.
Speaker 2:You can share a personal view that I think it's challenging and I may have done it slightly differently, but this is the direction we've been given.
Speaker 1:This is the direction we're going, right, I think one of the other tips I talk give leaders so and I've seen this as well is don't procrastinate. Yeah, get on with it. It's painful, it's uncomfortable, but don't procrastinate. If you've been given a task to do, go and having a conversation with an individual or run a ranking process, or whatever you've got to do, get on with it so let's look at another angle on that procrastination.
Speaker 2:Don't procrastinate the fact that you're going to have to run this when those people are gone. So be thinking about this now, don't wait that people leave on the friday and on Monday you're going. Ok, how are we going to make this function? Now? Listen, you and I have talked about it before right, when the time to perform comes, the time to prepare has gone, right, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't be thinking about that. So you need to be doing it in parallel. As soon as you know that a certain person and you'll have that information at some point during the process as soon as you know that that certain person is at risk and is probably going, you need to be thinking about how will this function when they're gone and what do I need to be doing now. By the way, I've got to be careful. What we say here. I can imagine HR calling us up going. What did you just broadcast? Right, but it may not be a done deal that every single name you see will actually go and you might program, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:it depends say that again, neil, it depends on the program. It depends on the program, right? But it may be that a name that gets identified, some people may not have fully appreciated the impact of that person going and it's upon you to share that impact because that might change the outcome. So I don't think it should automatically be a rollover. Here's the names it's going to happen, end of. I think you. You have a responsibility to ensure that, before that decision is executed, you've made it clear what the impact is. Again, it's not making excuses and afterwards you can say I told you that was going to happen. It's not that. It's calling something out that somebody may not have realized and when they tell you we've realized it, we have realized it. Thanks for telling us, move on, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm guessing there is a clue there in making sure that, as a leader, you're representing what your team is doing and the individuals in your team are doing on a regular basis, not just when there's a restructuring going on. Yeah, that's probably for another podcast going on. Yeah, that's probably for another another podcast. So there's. So we've said um, some tips are um, don't procrastinate, be clear on the why. Um be clear on the process. What other tips would we have?
Speaker 2:I would say make yourself available to your team members for them to want to come and talk to you, and a major part of that being available is to listen. It may just be to listen. I can guarantee leaders listen to this call. If there's a voluntary element to this restructuring, somebody will come and ask you what you think now. What's your answer to that? What would you answer, neil? Somebody comes to you and says there's a volunteer opening. Should I take it? What do you reckon?
Speaker 1:um, so as a coach these days, I would take a different approach than I might have done as a leader. I think you know, as a coach, obviously you start asking people about their life goals and where they're in their direction, is what they're hoping to achieve, that kind of thing. As a leader, I would probably still take a similar approach. That you know I can't make that decision for you because we're all at different stages. So what do you want and what's you know what? How, how might that? Yeah, the problem is I'm slipping into coaching mode again, so it's very difficult for me to think of it as a leader. Actually, to be fair, but actually is that?
Speaker 2:is that it's a problem? It's not unreasonable that, as a leader, you're also a coach to them, right?
Speaker 1:No, that's true, that is that's true. And you know, as we know, coaching skills are an important part of leadership, and maybe this is a time where you really need them, because you're going to ask great questions and you're going to listen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think something that really resonates for me on this particular conversation is what we're talking about here. Other things do as well, but this one definitely definitely extends well beyond your day job, your career. This is a life discussion. This extends well beyond that. And, just like you said, what are your goals? Where does this fit in what you were thinking about in life? Where does this fit if you've got a partner, if you've got dependents Right? Where does this fit in your ability to execute that?
Speaker 2:And and, by the way, restructuring comes across as a real negative, massive impact on people Change my plan. This isn't what I wanted. It's going to be helpful. Hang on. There's a percentage of people here that are going to go. Perfect timing, yeah, perfect opportunity for me to take a step away from what I was doing, to get a payout, to move away from that and to take me to a new beginning somewhere else. Or to take, in some cases, if you, if you've done enough years to take retirement or free time or whatever you want to call it right um, so don't, let's not automatically assume that this restructuring conversation has to be bad news for everybody, because in some cases, it might be a very, very welcome opportunity and I was going to touch on that right, because one of the challenges of leader is you start thinking about, uh, the people involved and their lives.
Speaker 1:You know they've got a young family, the wife doesn't work or the husband doesn't work. Um, you know, they've got this big mortgage and by doing this restructure and we're going to destroy their lives. Yeah, you know and and I think we've all been there but you know, my mature, sage head now, as I approach 60, has a very different approach yeah people are very resilient and capable of looking after themselves.
Speaker 1:You don't have to live their lives for them or worry. It doesn't mean you don't have to empathize, recognize uh, support them, give them tools and that they might help them getting the next role. But certainly in most countries in the world in the moment, with a reasonable skill set, finding another role is not. It's not, doesn't not easy, but it's not as daunting as it had potentially has been in the past when we've been in deep recessions and things like that yeah um.
Speaker 1:So you just got to be very careful. You just focus on the objectivity of the job and what you need to do, and let the individuals work out what that means to them yeah, no good point.
Speaker 2:They might not be thinking as clearly as they normally would. It's an emotional thing. This is really emotional, right? They might not be thinking as clearly as they normally did, so I would be leading them to think through the pros and cons and have you sat down and look? It works for me. It doesn't work for everybody. Have you written them down? Have you written down the pros and cons and stared at them? And if you've got a partner, shared it with them and if you guys work through?
Speaker 2:Actually, when I look at this, I'm in the midst of this right now, neil, right, I think this is probably being broadcast, maybe when those people have left the organization. I'm in the midst of that now. I've had people come to talk to me and I've got real life experience of what I've done. Now I hope I've handled them all as best as I could, right, and one of them is to just go through those pros and cons. I've had people come back to me who absolutely were devastated, that have come back to me weeks later and gone. Wow, this is a great chance. It's one that I probably wouldn't get again. So I'm going to take it now. And they've 180, right in that, because they've stopped, dealt with the early emotion of it and then reflected on what that could mean for them. So I think that's really quite important that you guide them to think through the pros and cons, because they might not be thinking as clearly as they normally do yeah, I think that's, that's very, that's really helpful and good, good leadership to help people with that.
Speaker 1:And you know, a coaching question that I always ask difficult for a boss to ask this one, yeah, it's. But something you can do a bit of self-coaching on is how could this be good news for me, or how could this be great, or what could be great about this? And I've had people that have gone off and done completely different things with their lives as a result of, uh, a restructuring program that meant they were leaving the organization. Yeah, um, so I just wanted to mention you know that's important that leaders don't try and live their employees lives for them. Don't assume that. You know this is going to be devastating, they're going to be on the streets and you know that kind of thing. Um, be empathetic, give them support, but don't live their lives for them now.
Speaker 2:Really, good point, really good point, really good point. Another thing that you could be doing as a leader is don't underestimate the network and the contacts that you've got in the marketplace, and you may be able to just provide some of that to an employee who would be leaving the company. Now, you're not going to become their recruitment agent, but there's no reason why you couldn't put them in touch with people that you know in the industry that might appreciate their skills joining them. All you're doing is an introduction, right? How much does it take for you to do a quick introduction, whether it's over an email, a phone call, a LinkedIn message or whatever? That's something you could offer. And again, people have asked me that directly. Is there anything?
Speaker 1:you know of that's up, or could you introduce me to people? Yeah, if I can, by all means. And, by the way, me introducing doesn't mean a recommendation either Right? So you've got to think about that. Something that just occurred to me was we're thinking of this as two 60-year-old blokes and I know that the millennial generation, so our kids they have less of an issue with this Because they're making decisions to move on and shift companies anyway, and, whilst they might not like it that it wasn't their choice, I think they are more resilient to restructuring actions than our generation or the generation just after us. You know, I think that's so. So depends who you've got working in your team.
Speaker 2:It's a good point, right, because if you go back to our generation and thereabouts, joining a company and staying there and jobs for life was something that was heard of, right? You talk to our kids and colleagues and the thought of them staying at one company for the rest of their life is torture, right? They just cannot imagine why you would do that. But also, you know they can also see the opportunities that moving one company create to the next creates for them, taking that skill, knowledge and building on it as you go. There is that piece, I think. I think the other one to mention is, as you say, the kind of people you're talking about, or whatever stage of life they are. One of the options might actually go to get away from a paye job structure, right, yeah, yeah, I mean, where did you go when you left, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, and that was kind of orchestrated. So you know it was a, it wasn't sprung on me, I had a plan for it. But exactly yeah, and lots of people I coach are in that late 40s, early 50s. They don't really want another corporate job. They want to go and take their experience and go somewhere else and and and develop a uh something where they that they're earning and but they've got the flexibility of being their own boss, that kind of thing. Or they want to go. And you know I had someone. What did they do?
Speaker 1:they took a restructure and they went and set up a gym or a health and well-being center yeah you know, because they had a bit of cash so they could invest it in a franchise, and they set that up and it was brilliant, something they'd always wanted to do. Yeah, exactly, but I just coming back to the so the leaders that are managing this, yeah, there's a couple of things we haven't talked about yet. Firstly, you mentioned um, you know, don't get to d-day and then go, how am I going to run the business?
Speaker 1:yeah but actually, before that, you've got to think how do I manage this business while we're going through this uncertain time? Yeah yeah, because you know it's never over in two or three weeks. It always takes a bit of time and there's an unsettled time when people know something's happening but they haven't been told yet and all that sort of thing. So what advice would you have for a leader on how to keep the team motivated, energized and doing the job?
Speaker 2:I think it is going to be difficult because you've got people here who may be looking to move out and part of their time spent now will be looking for a new job and all that good stuff. But I think the clarity we need to provide is we've still got a business to run, and how well we don't run it over these next few weeks will determine how much of a mess we've got to clear up later. We've also got clients that we can't be disrupting, right, because you'll start making your clients nervous if things start falling off a cliff and you haven't even made any changes in your restructure. So you've got to just stay focused and and the point will be yes, there is distraction. Yes, there are meetings that people are going to, whether it's employee consultations. Yes, there will be people looking at further job opportunities outside. So that's consuming time, but, but we need to keep going as a team. We've got a mission. We've got to carry on that mission. No one has given us a moratorium in the goals that we've got to deliver, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you've got to be as you said you. You've got to be very visible, very present and be the best leader you can be at that moment in time. And that then puts a lot of pressure on that individual, that leader, because they're having to manage this process and they're having to manage the business and having to think about how they run it going forward. How should leaders look? Make sure they look after themselves during this process?
Speaker 2:number one. They shouldn't be afraid to ask for help, right from who? Oh, I I've seen very few leaders go to hr or to go to their boss and say I'm struggling with this myself and I need some help here. Right, and there's no reason why you shouldn't. They're also, hopefully in many companies not all there'll be some level of employee assistance program. Right, use that. That employee assistance program doesn't say employee brackets, non-leaders does it. I mean, you're an employee as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, I mean, I, I genuinely I think people forget and they read that and they see that as being non-leaders can because? Because leaders are stronger than that, so they shouldn't need to go for employee assistance, right? Yeah, we're all human, guys, we're all human exactly, yeah, and actually those employee assistance programs.
Speaker 1:there's one organization I was working with where I are, I recommended. One of the leaders went to oh no, I'm not doing that because it'll get reported back to HR and then it'll get back to my boss. Yeah, and the reality is, if it's an external employee assistance program, it's completely confidential. Yeah, they might pass back to the company the number of people that have used them and the types of topics they were talking about, but they won't individualize. No, any kind of report back.
Speaker 2:so that's one. That's one. That's one thing. Neil right is asking for help, certainly asking for help in terms of how you're feeling, how you're managing the situation. What other advice would you give in terms of how somebody should be managing themselves and the situation as a leader?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I I'm gonna come back to what I, what I do with every leader I work with when they're going through tough times. It's come back to the basics of the bottom of the pyramid, which is your mental and physical, uh well-being. So your um, mental well-being journaling, meditation, breathing, being outside in nature just take time for yourself, mindfulness. Take time for yourself and, even though you might be working ridiculous hours because of the extra work you've got to do and and you know you is, just take time to get some exercise, get something, whether it's even if it's just a walk. But those what I see in his book seven habits.
Speaker 1:He talks about the big rocks yeah you get the big rocks in place first, and then there's room for the smaller rocks and then the gravel and then the sand. If you don't put the big rocks in first, you cannot get them in the jar. And if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, then go go onto youtube and google uh, steven covey, big rocks yeah and the big rocks have got to be your mental and physical health, because so block in your calendar time for those.
Speaker 1:Uh, even if it's you know and and just you'll, you will fit the work in that needs to be fitted in, but make sure you mentally and physically that's what I would say start at the bottom of the pyramid yeah, no, really really good advice, neil.
Speaker 2:Really good advice. I mean that you know that's useful day to day whatever. But when you put it into this extra stress, stressful and emotional time, even more so because you will be feeling the strains of others coming on you as well, as well as you managing your own yep so is there anything else we want to add that might help leaders when they're going through restructuring?
Speaker 2:not sure. I think we've hit a lot of what I would advise and what I would lead people to think through. It is a very personal thing and it is very personal because it's you and your employees who you may have got very close to, so that is difficult to manage. Now there's nothing that cut screams at a man. You think you think of anything specific?
Speaker 1:I'm not either. I think we've covered everything. The only thing I'm going to add at the end here and I haven't spoken to you about this beforehand and say no, if I'm wrong but if someone's struggling, a leader is struggling by going through a restructuring program of any kind, feel free to drop me or albert a message just to say you know, I'd like to have a quick or what a zoom or whatever. I'm very happy to help support um, and I know you will be, because you're a giving person as well. So, and because if you've got to the end of this podcast, there's a bit of a free, a freebie, yeah, as as well. So please do you know, message us on linkedin or um or wherever you can find us. Yeah, no, listen, great, great offer, neil um, you're right, we didn't talk about it beforehand and I'm.
Speaker 2:Please do you know, message us on LinkedIn or wherever you can find us. Yeah, no, listen, great offer, neil. You're right, we didn't talk about it beforehand and I'm very happy that you did offer that actually. So, yeah, genuinely, guys, right, and all we can do is help you with some reflection and just talk through some of the things we've talked through here. We might not provide the answer, but at least you've got someone to be able to talk to with that. That'd be great.
Speaker 1:Very happy to do that outside of the line of business, as well, indeed, indeed okay now brilliant, great, great. I know that was a topic that you want us to cover today. Really good conversation, actually, and hopefully that's really helped our leaders, and please leave us feedback, as usual, uh, and let us know what else you'd like us to cover in the leadership detectives indeed.
Speaker 2:Well, look if there were some clues there to good leadership. Guys, guys, I hope we've helped Neil great to talk to you here today. Thanks, mate Cheers. Take care, talk to you later.
Speaker 1:Bye.
Speaker 2:Bye. Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thubron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectivescom for all the episodes and more resources and support.