Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Leading with Trust and Transparency
Trust cascades downward. Those three words capture the essence of Rob Mullen's leadership philosophy as Managing Director of Trenitalia C2C Rail and Chair of the Board of Trustees of Bath City Football Club Foundation. In this compelling conversation with Neil and Albert, Rob reveals why honesty and transparency form the bedrock of his approach to leading a major UK railway company.
What sets great leaders apart? For Rob, it begins with creating an environment where people feel heard, supported, and trusted to make decisions. He shares how his father's simple wisdom—"If you don't tell us the truth, we can't help you"—shaped his leadership journey and continues to guide how he builds trust within his organization today.
The conversation takes us inside Rob's unconventional methods for connecting with frontline staff. From driving trains himself to working night security shifts alongside his team and even making station announcements, Rob demonstrates that true leadership means getting your hands dirty. These aren't mere gestures—they're deliberate strategies that build credibility and show genuine care for employee welfare.
Most powerful is Rob's candid discussion of vulnerability. He recounts personal stories of acknowledging his own mistakes, apologizing when needed, and creating space for others to do the same. This vulnerability-first approach has transformed C2C's culture, creating what he calls "high challenge, high support" teams where difficult conversations happen without damaging relationships.
Rob's personal leadership journey reveals how finding his authentic voice—rather than trying to fit someone else's leadership mold—unlocked his true potential. Through life's challenges, including a divorce that forced deep reflection and rediscovery through ultra-running, he found that "being Rob Mullen was okay" and ultimately more effective than trying to be someone he wasn't.
Whether you're leading a major organization or taking your first steps into management, this episode offers practical wisdom on building trust, empowering teams, and leading with authenticity in an increasingly digital world. Subscribe now and discover why the most powerful leadership tool might be the courage to be yourself.
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives with Albert Joseph and Neil Thubron. This is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today, or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you. Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Detectives with Albert and Neil searching for clues on great leadership. And today we are really honoured to be joined by Rob Mullen, who's Managing Director of Tranitalia C2C Rail and also Chair of the Board of Trustees of Bath City Football Club Foundation and also chair of the board of trustees of bath city football club foundation. Um, I know rob. I've known rob for a number of years through the ultra running world and he's taken part in a number of our events and we've organized an event for for rob as well, to raise money for charity. And I know rob's a great leader and he's got some great insight on leadership, so I'm so pleased to have him on. So welcome, rob, to an episode of the Leadership Detectives.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, Really really pleased to be invited to kind of talk through this stuff with you, yeah yeah, no.
Speaker 1:I'm looking forward to getting going Fantastic Good. And, of course, albert, good to see you again. Are you well Good to?
Speaker 3:see you. Yeah, I'm not well. We always do this bit, Neil. Right, I'm in Surrey.
Speaker 1:Where are you, neil? I don't know if the answer is necessarily relevant, but I am in the Caribbean at the moment, in Antigua, yeah, which you know. But clearly, recording this podcast is an important part of what we do. We do um so, but it's a good.
Speaker 3:It's a good point right, because the point is no matter where you are, no matter what we're doing right, we'll always come back and make sure our audience are getting the latest right. So to be able to do it from where you are out there and to get an outstanding guest like rob is is, you know, a great opportunity for us. So, yeah, yeah, really looking forward to it. Let's get rolling okay.
Speaker 1:So, rob, I mean, look, the purpose of this podcast we've said is about uncovering the clues of great leadership, and let's just start with that as a an opening question. When you think about that term great leadership, what, what do you think makes a great leader?
Speaker 2:makes a great leader. Whoa, that's a. That's a big place to start, right. I mean, um.
Speaker 2:So I think I think the first thing that came out of my mouth, the first thing came to my head, was honesty, um, and I think there's something there about honesty and transparency. I the the. I think people will follow people, they can believe in the people, they can trust the people that they can put their energies into, feeling that they're supported and heard. I think you know, if you are trusted, then you can create a good sense of mission, I guess. So you know, when you're talking about your aims and objectives and the thing that you want to go and achieve, people can get behind that if they trust you. You know if you can create that sense of believability, if that's even a word.
Speaker 2:But you know, I think that's what springs to mind, and I say it at work quite a bit, okay, I was. I say it at work quite a bit, um, and I come it's from my dad. Uh, he always, he always said, uh, if you, if you don't tell us the truth, we can't help you. Um, and and that's not because you know I spend lots, spent lots of time not telling the truth, but like there's more a case of um, this sense of transparency. If I, if I know, if I know the playing field, then we can act upon it, then I can help. So I think there's something about honesty, transparency and creating trust in people and then they can make the decisions based upon that.
Speaker 1:Which sounds like great tips of great leadership. So, for the people listening what, what's your experience of how you create that trust?
Speaker 2:well, I think so. My experience I guess it's about, uh, you know, being a being approachable and being honest in those places where it can be difficult. That can be difficult. So you know you lead an organization. There are sometimes difficult decisions to be made, but you can be upfront and honest with that. People are people you know, have their lives outside of work and have to make their own difficult decisions. So you know, if you give people kind of uh, the parameters that they can work with, they can make their own decisions. I guess what I mean by that. I think people need to know the good and the bad. If they're trusted to make their own assessment, their own decisions, then they usually excel.
Speaker 2:I think We've spent a lot of time in c2c cascading leadership training. We've spent a lot. I've spent a lot of time with my team working on vulnerability and honesty. We often we use um lencioni kind of five dysfunctional team really to build upon vulnerability and trust and so you know, and then you can, you can give that trust away and so the the approach that we then do is then cascade that through the business. So we try and put decision making as close to the, the customer, as possible. That, only that only works when you, you trust the trust, the people to do the right thing, because you've trained them, you've given, you've given away that empowerment, you've allowed people to go and behave and act in a way that you, you would want. But you know, if you, if you micromanage, you control all of that, I mean you never, never achieve it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's an interesting yeah, as you talk about trust there, rob. I guess that works, you know, with your team, but that that would also then transfer to the way they treat your customers as well. So you're creating a whole environment and and culture of that trust you. You mentioned your dad in there, actually, rob, so is that one of your inspirations that got you to to go to pursue a leadership career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my dad was a policeman in Hong Kong. He then joined the prison service. I think he at one point held the record for being a governor in the most maximum security prisons. So he's got an OBE. He is brilliant on his feet, great orator and really funny, which I'm glad has been cascaded through the generation. My dad is an incredibly hard working man, hard, kind of quite stoic man from Glasgow, but yeah, he is a real inspiration, a real inspiration, um.
Speaker 2:But I also I would also kind of reference, you know, I had uncles who were in the army, air corps, who were in the royal air force, but also, you know kind of other uncles who worked in the railway but, you know, have completely different backgrounds and careers. You know who you know always showed up. You know my uncle, my uncle Billy from Glasgow, whatever the birthday was, and we lived down in the Midlands. He didn't drive, he showed up on the train every time, you know, with a brand new Glasgow Rangers shirt, even though he didn't support them. You know, um, I guess it kept trying to kind of um put that in me, but uh, you know, those are the kind of things, that commitment that you know, that uh, that kind of passion for for something you know.
Speaker 2:So I I think I've had some really good role models in my family around and that not not standing you know my mum and her commitment you we often go like my dad was a real inspiration. It was my dad who was off going doing that kind of that work, but it was my mum who was, you know, making sure that, you know, everything was clean, we were fed, washed, you know, sacrificing her career for me and my sister and brother. So, yeah, I've been really lucky with my family giving me that space to grow and to kind of feel confident enough to be myself, which I think it also kind of helps and it's easy to. It's easier to lead when you come from a, I think sometimes from a kind of a safe environment or feeling secure about yourself, before you then can go and talk to others about things like that yeah, 100% yourself before you then can go and talk to others about things like that yeah, 100 percent and that's really um inspiring to hear robin can see some real great leadership, um role models in that.
Speaker 1:And then what you just said there, um, I'm curious around the trust piece that you were talking about earlier, the so cascading trust down I get. How do you, how, how do you then trust the people to reciprocate that? To come back up, because I guess you know, because a lot of people and I know because of the some of the business owners I work with they're very nervous about giving too much of what empowerment, too much trust down, because how do they know it's going to be be reciprocated or accepted in the way you want it to be accepted?
Speaker 2:well it's. Firstly, it's a two-way street and it doesn't happen overnight, so there's anything from the concept of managing by walking around.
Speaker 2:So, go and front it up right. Go and live with the decisions that you're making or the policies you're implementing. So I was really fortunate. I've driven trains on C2C. I know what the shifts that our drivers work and I know some of the experiences our frontline guys do. So we have what's called operation night hour, which is when our security, security, revenue, protection people go out at night, uh, to check tickets, and you know people's safety. I go with them, you know I. I expect my directors to go with them, you know. So we show up and we front the. You know the outcomes of the policies that we are implementing or helping change.
Speaker 2:So the fact that our frontline teams see that their managing director is willing to do the things that they do on a day-to-day basis builds trust. It shows that I care about their welfare because I'm willing to put my neck in the same space. Really, I'm willing to put my kind of neck in the same space. Really. You know I'm willing to do those things. And I also think you know we do an awful lot of, you know, leadership conferences and we do what we call huddles so all the entire business can come on a call.
Speaker 2:You know we have our top management team in a room every quarter and we reiterate, you know, question every question. We make sure it's not just me stood on a stage talking. All levels of the business are talking on the stage talking about their experience. They're committed to the strategy because, you know, we need all of those people committed to the strategy. There has to be a benefit for those guys as well Visibility, openness, not ducking the difficult questions and if someone's not put a difficult question in the chat, making sure you ask one anyway because you know, as I said I guess I said- earlier.
Speaker 3:We're all human beings. We all want to know the good, the bad and the ugly?
Speaker 2:you know, am I, am I going to get paid? You know, do I get my annual leave? All of those things. Is there any risk that I should worry about? What's the opportunity? You know, will I, you know, will I get a bonus this year? All of those key things that people are thinking but might not feel bold enough to ask if they, if they get voiced next time, get more confident if they realize there's no, there's no comeback, there's no comeback to asking a difficult question. In fact, when someone does ask a difficult question, it's kind of celebrated, you know, but and I'm because I'm quite comfortable not knowing the answer- yeah, you've covered some great ground there, right, you can.
Speaker 3:You've covered ground around inclusiveness. You've covered ground about openness and honesty and there's a whole, there's a whole vulnerability there about what you've talked about, right? So for our listeners listening into this, right, rob's talked about going going to the floor, right, in some jobs it's more difficult to do that to actually go and go to the floor with your employees and see what they're doing on a day-to-day basis. But, but our listeners, you've got to think about this, guys. How do you get directly involved with what they do every day to actually be part of that and to appreciate it and to see it happening?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, yeah, and I've seen directors doing it as well. Sorry, rob, just uh, just want to, because I don't think you realize and this is this is what I love about great leaders they don't realize why they're great leaders. Yeah, what? Some of the things you've just said there are not common, and they are not common amongst leaders, but they are clear clues to making great leaders. Putting yourself out.
Speaker 1:I read, I read online about you doing one operation night owl and going out, and there's a quote from you I'll find it in a minute about when you came back from that. But how many people in your position would actually go and do that? How many people will encourage or even insist their directors are out as well with the teams, um and and driving the trains and experiencing the shifts? And then then you mentioned huddles. Just in passing, we'll just talk about huddles again. It's not common, right, it's not common for people to do that and be vulnerable rather than scripted. So those are two really important things of of of great leadership. Sorry, rob, please no I was just gonna.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say one of my favorite jobs on c2c, one of my favorite things to do um is so when you go through Fenchurch Street, sue is one of our station announcers, so she sits in one of the back offices. I love going in there and doing the announcements manually, kind of see it say it sorted and all of that stuff.
Speaker 2:I think that's brilliant. You get the opportunity for one of your colleagues to tell you about how their expertise right, so they're in charge in that environment. You've walked into their office. It's not, you know, I'm not asking them to go and chair a board meeting, but I am asking them to go and teach me, show me, how to do the brilliant thing that you do right, because we all have, we're all, you know, these little cogs in that do a different thing and we might, you know, have different things to do every day. We might work shift, we might not work shifts, but we all are components of this big machine that gets people from a to b every single day and hopefully back again.
Speaker 2:So the I and I. You know, if you, if you went and asked, you know my wife, so about? You know what's rob's mood like when he comes home from work on a day where I've done operation night out or I've been out in the chupi depot or I've, you know, done something like that, or at least so we've got a leadership conference on thursday? I will, I can guarantee you I'll be nervous going into it just because, just by nature, standing up in front of over 100 people, I just always feel, I'll always feel nervous, and that's kind of good because you feel nervous, because it means something. You want it to go well. I will come home, I'll be shattered while we're buzzing, because the interaction I've had with my team and the people, that's what makes me love what I do.
Speaker 2:It's not that, it's not, it's not um, moving hundreds of tons of metal, that's that, is just that could be anything. Really. It's the, it's the. It's that kind of interaction, that community, you know being part of that, being able, that being, you know having the privilege to lead these fantastic people who you know do all sorts of different things, have all sorts of different intellects, all sorts of different backgrounds. You know, I just think that's such a privilege and I sometimes I can hardly believe that someone's asked me to do it.
Speaker 1:To be frank, which is, I mean, and to be honest, that's another great uh clue is to feel privileged, to lead people. You know, that's the, that's a really important clue as well, and you can tell from where the way you're describing it, the passion, um, I'm curious because we've never had someone on who's in a, an industry that is funded by the government.
Speaker 2:You know, and I don't mean that as a I said, and I don't mean that as a criticism of anybody who's part of that part, those politics or that bureaucracy, it's just a part of life. So, prior the railways, inherently because it is so. You know, people their their commutes to work a time to the minute you can have a, you have a really good day at work, but your train's delayed or late in the evening. That could completely ruin your day. So we are, you're, a national institution, as you know, as a real responsibility to the kind of happiness or cheeriness of the the of, you know, uk population Of Essex, yeah, yeah, well, that's there. So, but often the railways gets portrayed quite negatively in the media. You know MPs, you know representatives of areas. They want good railway travel. They want, you know, they want all of the good stuff right, but it also needs to be paid for. You know, and post-COVID, you know, a lot of railways are now kind of on subsidies where they prior when people didn't work from home to quite such an extent they weren't. You know, and CTC is one of those. And you know we put a strategy in around driving out subsidy. It's called our 10 10 year net zero strategy and we, you know, in the last three years we've driven out 35 percent or we've improved that net subject by 35 percent, so it's getting towards zero. I'm really proud of that, um.
Speaker 2:But you know the one year funding cycles, which is just the way that you know the government do it, that creates difficult and things it that creates difficulty in things like procurement. It creates difficulty in long. You know we've got a huge asset base. You know anyone who works the supply chain knows that a year isn't great for. You know, dealing with big lots of concrete and steel, it's a difficult environment to operate in. And if we were a truly big private organization, we'd do it differently. We'd spread that. We, you know we do a 200 million pound um piece of work and spread over the cost, spread the cost over 10, 15 years or whatever. But we don't have, we don't have that capability at the moment and hopefully the industry will learn and the railway will. You know the treasure, you know the treasury will get to a place where we can be funded for longer and then get out. Get out that kind of funding cycle issue.
Speaker 2:But, um, but you have to convince people, you have to gain trust. You know, um, and I think too often, and you know the railway hasn't helped itself because we've been, you know, on the back end of news stories. Not the C2C, thankfully, to a certain extent, but train strikes, I don't know. Infrastructure schemes cost too much, taking too long, all of those things has created a negative feeling around the industry, and an industry that is part of a national discourse every single day. For people getting to work and going, getting back from work, it's like the weather, isn't it? You know? Yeah, and I, and I think that's that's kind of a bit of a shame, because actually it's a. It's a an industry that is transformational for a lot, for a lot of people, for a lot of areas, for a lot of communities. It drives investment into places. You know, if you've got good, reliable transport, punctual transport, it makes a place far more attractive. It makes a place far more investable. Investable is that a word?
Speaker 3:I don't know yeah, you get my meat, you get my meat, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So we, we, you know that discourse has to change and that that has to come from us. We've got to. We've got to work with uh, with government, we've got to work with funders to make sure we've got a railway fit for fit for the traveling public and for freight. Um, you know so it's a challenge, but it's a, it's a long-term challenge.
Speaker 3:Um, off the back of, you know, lots of victorian infrastructure yeah yeah, you've been talking there about strategy well right, and looking at long-term plans and so on, and previously you were talking about strategy and looking at long term plans and so on, and previously you were talking about operational. How do you balance that? How do you balance the two? How much time you spend in each one and to what extent? How do you do that as a leader?
Speaker 2:So, I think that, I think comes back to my kind of my first point around trust. So my job at the top of the organization one of the reasons we created net zero was about when I started I felt that our directors and were spending far too much time making this operational decisions for the business rather than just setting setting a, you know helping to set a long-term agenda with our stakeholders and partners. And you know giving the, giving our teams the parameters to work, work for here's the long-term horizon now for you, then next level, our heads-off community. What that means for you is over the next three years or next year, two, three years. I want to see, I want to see the plan that helps us achieve that within that time frame. And for you, what that means is you know your first level managers really need to be making sure they're delivering the day-to-day the things that we promised to the Department of Transport, which is effectively our promise to our customers. That whole point of pushing down decision making means actually day-to-day, our frontline managers are delivering the business, not waiting on a decision from the directors. You know they can't work like that. It moves too slowly and for me I trust my management team I, I employed almost all of my directors, so I recruited quite a number of them. But every single other, all of the ones that are there, that are existing, I've taken a heartbeat in it, in, in in any industry, because I, because I trust them and they're bright and they're sharp and they're clever and they care, most importantly, and so what? I would charge them with the same. If your team don't represent you, if you can't trust them to do what you need them to do, well, you really haven't got the right team. Yeah, I think you can develop people and you can shape people and you give them the space to do that.
Speaker 2:But if, if, if, the managing director at the top of the organization is right in the you know the, the sickness numbers every day, or the delay minute numbers every single day, well, that's me just stomping all over three, four, five levels of people trying to do their job. So, yeah, and I, you know I started off. You know, on the front, on the front line, do you know, doing the delay minutes, doing the, doing those kind of first, first jobs, first level manager jobs. Now, you know if I, if I thought that my you know bosses, bosses, bosses, boss was going to come in and go. Hey, well, that's wrong. You want to do it this way? Well, that wouldn't be much of a motivator. You need to be able to make your own mistakes. But I trust my team. We set the strategy. The guys believe that they then kind of implement that on a more local scale, and then that's the way it cascades.
Speaker 1:Certainly. I'm going to read a quote, rob, that I found, uh, back to you, which kind of reinforces some of this but I'd be interested in in your view. So the quote that I found that you'd said was I'm absolutely sure we will make mistakes, but if you don't stretch, you don't learn, yeah. And so when you think of that quote, you've kind of talked about the fact that if you're pushing stuff down, I guess people will make mistakes, and so how do you, how do you manage that? How do you allow that? How do you create that environment where it's okay to to make mistakes with you know, yeah. So how do you create that environment?
Speaker 2:I think the first thing you need to do is, you know, put your hand up when you make one. The first thing you have to do is demonstrate that vulnerability. And so actually I don't know what to do here. Guys, you know, let's get around the table, let's talk this one through, because I'm not sure, or you know, uh, even to the point of I remember I had an exec meeting and I had a slightly terse exchange with all my um directors. Like we both, both were tired, both had a, you know, had a bad day, and it was, you know, it was like well, you said this yeah, well, I said that it was one of those really silly, kind of tired, and and we both looked together I said look, first of all, I'm sorry, I my my behavior wasn't right there.
Speaker 2:You know, we've written up. We've written our values, our behaviors up on the wall so everybody in the business can see it. I thought I'd let my you know, I've let myself down, I'll let you down, you know. And my opposite number, who I won't know, was like no, hey, I was in that space too sorry, we just moved on. But that that came from, uh, a good two years of of trust, of working together, talking about how we work together and support each other.
Speaker 2:So you have to be able to look at your own inadequacies. All of my team will tell you that I'm not brilliant with detail, probably, or I can do it, but it's not what I focus. I've got a brain like a sieve, uh, you know. So there are lots of things I'm not brilliant at and I'm quite happy with that, you know it's. I've got great people in my team, really talented people who are really good at that. So they're gonna look hey, rob, you're. You know, I've got that bit. Can you just do that? You go and speak at that that thing, because you're quite good at that or you know we compliment each other and I think that's important. But I think I think it's quite powerful to hear someone say I'm sorry, or I didn't get it right, I don't know. Or like that point about going into Fenchurch Street and asking Sue to show me how do you do the station announcements. There's no greater thing than massaging someone's ego by massaging their intellect.
Speaker 1:Yeah Albert, I know you've got a question. I just want to have a quick follow-up to this, if that's all right. Sure, sure I get. So you're showing your vulnerability by when you make mistakes. But how is it okay for someone at a ground floor level to make a mistake and to not feel like they're going to get beaten up by their, their boss or their boss's boss?
Speaker 2:so it's culture, isn't it? And so it's culture and it has to cascade from me. So when, when my team kind of cock up or made a mistake, or then how do I respond to that? You know, do you see lots of mass sackings, do you know? Just just, do you see me stomping around the office waving my finger?
Speaker 2:no and you know the way that we, we talk to each other and support each other. I don't see my team doing that either. So, and we openly talk at things like our leadership conference about, uh, you know, uh, how we behave. You know how we're inclusive, how we're supportive, how you know, we had a session of the day at one of the leadership conference previously about, you know, the difficulties of being a dad, where you, you know, you don't, you don't get to spend as much time your kids as you might like. So we, we are open and, um, human about this stuff. So I don't see and of course, let's be, we're an organization of 700 people there will be examples where we've got it wrong, but, but the whole point of continuous improvement and learning and having good HR, business partners and having a culture where you can say there's high challenge and high support, which is another one of our mantras around the table, it's okay to say you know I completely disagree with what you said, I think you're wrong there, and you know I don't know you've got your facts wrong. And then go right, okay, well, let's have that exchange. But in the very same next breath, go hey, look, I recognise you're having a tough time as well. So do you want to grab a coffee? You know it's all good teamwork. Now, you know no one's trying to offend anybody. The objective is for the business to be better. So you know the and I think you get. You get much better outcomes from people when they they've learned and they have their parameters good and bad. You know, when you've done well, you know done badly. But you know, trying to try to kind of hammer someone to making a mistake. Now, if people make repeat mistakes and they don't want to learn or they don't care, that's something different.
Speaker 2:We work in a heavily safety-orientated organisation. Our outcomes can kill people, so we have to get that right and we're all safety. First, we drill safety. So every single meeting there's a safety moment. We always talk about safety at the beginning of every single one of our meetings. You won't find one of our board meetings without a safety moment, starts, etc. So, but you have to let people grow and they won't grow unless they make mistakes. You know it's like learning to ride a bike, isn't it? You know? I mean that's a kind of a quite a basic example, I guess but I've got a question about that, two questions.
Speaker 3:They're kind of connected, right, but let's you mentioned where you started your career and you're now managing director. If you could go back and offer your younger self yourself some leadership advice, what would it be?
Speaker 2:wow, um yeah I wasn't very, uh, I wasn't very confident, um, for for a long time. I guess there was a point where I'm not sure how. There was certainly a point in my, I'd say, my late 20s, early 30, 30s where I wasn't really 100% sure about my style or who I was really, and I think it took a few life-changing things to really make me reflect upon who Rob Mullen really was. And that all sounds a bit vague, but sometimes we need these shakes to go. What's actually really important to me, you know, and actually what was? You know? I think it was, to be honest, being open. It was a, it was a divorce. That kind of uh kind of shook me quite hard, um, and it made me reflect on what was important and I thought what I was doing was, uh, demonstrating kind of behaviors I thought were the right things, the right leadership style for that time. But it wasn't me and it wasn't, you know.
Speaker 2:I've always been quite a, I think, quite kind of people. First, you know kind of. I love the team, I love the people. It's not the. You know the numbers or the metrics or the. You know you get your people right and those things all follow If you get your mission right.
Speaker 2:Our mission here is very much about community and societal benefit, so that was what was with me, and as soon as I latched on to my purpose or my sense of self it's kind of weird A huge weight came off my shoulders.
Speaker 2:I felt far more confident talking, far more confident sharing what I believe to be true. But on top of that, what I will say is things like the ultra running made a big difference to me, you know, regaining my fitness from a place where I'd, you know, kind of put myself so deep into work that I'd become unhealthy, physically unhealthy and mentally not in a great place either. Not that I was doing anything particularly bad, but it wasn't true to me. And when I found running wasn't true to me, um, and when I, when I've refound running, uh, I gave myself a space to uh, invest in myself. You know, and you know, um, yeah, things like the marathon, to start, I mean what you know, neil knows all about that. That kind of experience, that kind of, yeah, um, development or self-learning. I think that life shake really gave me the kind of emphasis.
Speaker 2:So what would I tell my younger self? I'd probably tell myself you're good enough, you don't need to fit somebody else's mould. Like I say, I've had some brilliant role models. I've got I've got I'm really fortunate the friends that I've got, the people that are that surround me. So actually, I was good enough.
Speaker 2:I didn't have to try and be one a typical you know leader. I didn't have to be some of the kind of shouty and stampy people that I I saw, um, and actually just being rob mullen was was okay you know the amazing stuff rob is?
Speaker 3:it sounds like when you've decided to be the authentic rob, that was also the effective rob.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well yeah, yeah, I I, I definitely, um, it definitely enabled me to move from being, you know, here's some metrics, go and deliver them, and I could do that, I could work out how to do that. But to be able to start talking longer term, to feel confident in lots of different groups of people, to just being happy doing those things, doing those difficult things, and not worrying about them, because actually, you know, speaking at a conference is not the same as you know, kind of um, I don't know, having norovirus in the middle of the sahara desert, like those two things aren't the same, so like one is definitely more kind of uh, risky or difficult than the other one.
Speaker 1:I think they both expand your mind, though, as well, rob, don't they? They both expand you as a person.
Speaker 2:Definitely, I think, the other thing, like Soph I think it annoyed Soph when I first started saying it to her about you know what's the worst that's going to happen. You know she was a bit like what do you mean? Hey, you know you're going to speak at a conference. You know you go for a difficult meeting. What's the worst that's going to happen? It's a bit like, well, I mean, it's actually actually not nothing. Actually it's generally gonna be all right, isn't it? It is generally all right. You know, yeah, and people go into these things with such trepidation and you start really well, it's only another human being with hopes, wants and needs sat across the table. You know they're probably just as worried as you are exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's a really key clue in what you've just said there and we've heard this a number of times in interviews is don't try and be someone you're not. Don't try and play a character or put a mask on. When you come into the office and you put your suit on, your tie on and suddenly you're a different person, because you get found out pretty quick. Um and and until you are prepared to be your authentic self, with all the, the passion and the belief and the that goes with that, you're never going to be the best leader that you can can be, and you're not going to encourage other people to do either. Other people will then turn up with a mask on because they won't feel comfortable just being themselves either. So some great, great insight there. Um, albert, did you have you had a second question, didn't you wanted to follow?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean the link to that question would have been, given that our audience here are not only current leaders, but aspiring leaders as well. So what advice would you give to somebody just about to start embarking on a leadership career?
Speaker 2:I would say read widely. Um, and so I I. There's nothing I love more than reading books on shackleton or scott or you know, know, nelson, or even listen to good history podcasts. There are so many brilliant examples, inspirational examples of leadership, roman emperors, all sorts of things that can give you really good context for difficult situations that people have found themselves in.
Speaker 2:When you read about what real-life people have done, some incredible things that people have found themselves in, yeah, when you, when you put, when you read about what you know real life people have done, some incredible things that people have done, and then when you use you know some you know, read around things, you know different kind of uh principles, like like lencioni, or you know there are different models, find what works for you. I mean, I don't think there's any quick, there's no quick fix to it, but I do think that kind of, the more that you read, listen and kind of take in the advice and guidance of others, I think you will naturally come to something that feels true and that might be your style. Now I've got some brilliantly. I'm surrounded by brilliant leaders. You know Phil Le leaney, who neil knows he said, he's my finance director and he's my deputy.
Speaker 2:Him and I are very different characters, but I also think he's a brilliant leader in a different way. You know, he's great on his feet. He's great with the detail. He won't show, he will not flinch from a difficult conversation in a way that maybe I might not be as good at right, I definitely went to the detail as well as he did. He does um, but we have a different dynamic and he will be.
Speaker 2:He will be a brilliant leader in this in a in a slightly different way so, but I learned. I learned from the way that he's dealt with situations. So I think this is something about for me about being open-minded, identifying the things that that you like, so you can pick and choose. You know, it's um, and I would read widely, because the experience of others can really help get, make you kind of go oh, I like that. You know, maybe that wasn't the right thing to do, because it picks up some of your ethics and morals as well, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think what I've taken out from what you've just said there, rob, is that one size doesn't fit all right and it isn't this perfectly shaped leader. That is what's going to be successful, right, it's what suits the situation, what suits the role, and and don't try, don't try fitting yourself into that, into that block right, but make the best of what you are for, for what role you could take on, right. So there's been some great messages here. Now, generally, there's some really good messages, robin.
Speaker 1:What you, what you've brought across here yeah, loads, loads of great stuff, and you know, I'm conscious of coming to the end of our time in this conversation as as well, I think, and that in that last dialogue we were talking about basically being a constant learner, you know, and that which I think is so important. So I I guess I've got one final question I'd like to ask is what? What question haven't we asked you?
Speaker 1:about lead about leadership, about leadership, that you think actually that would have been a really good question to ask, because that's something I wanted to share.
Speaker 2:So I guess we've not talked about. You know how leadership evolves. You know, in a space where people become less and less connected, you know things like AI and social media and a change in connections with people. You know, whereas traditionally, you know, people work in offices. The world's starting to change and actually the the believability of some of the things that people write is you can start to see that well, you've not written that because I know your grammar is terrible, so, like you know, is there?
Speaker 2:Is there a change in the way that we lead people? I mean, I don't think I know another way to to do it, but you know, I think there's something about retaining authenticity of people, trying to remain human and trying to make sure that where, where it's easier to maybe go well, we'll just invest in chat, gbt or or other things that are available, like that human element, particularly in our industry, where we are, you know we are here for our customers, we have lots of people working for us. That human element is really important, about being believable and being truthful and being honest, because if you, if you, leave it all to a robot to kind of calculate the best outcome, you know there's something you lose that human element. I think that's so important we, we.
Speaker 1:the last episode we did actually was with um, a guy called dr david hooper, which was about ai and ai and leadership and I. The key message I took away from that was leaders should look at how they leverage AI to allow them more time to lead. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense as well, yeah. So, so, yeah, and so you're not turning leaders into robots. You're looking at how do you use the technology to enable you to to lead and be a better people person it's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 2:you know, you often get this. I often find this quite difficult because you often hear people talk about well, you know, we should make all trains driverless, for example. You know, uh, and then the same would probably might be in the military. You know, I will turn, so we'll do. I mean, those two things are slightly different. But the people also need work. Society needs people to work. So there's wide a question, maybe not a leadership question, but there is something about, you know, making. You know making sure that people have good, uh, good jobs that they can do, that are lifelong careers, and all sorts of those things that we don't just replace people. And you know, because I'm yet to see a computer that can take a thousand drunk people off a train in the middle of the night, in the rain, you know. So we should celebrate the human input and the human capability, as well as the kind of the software and ai a bit, but you're right, yeah, really good point okay, albert, any other?
Speaker 3:any last now, so that's a good point, right? So that's the. You know what's the evolution of leadership and how do we look at how we adapt that to and to the various industries as well? Right, so it would obviously vary across across the industries. Now, listen, I think we're kind of 40 minutes in. I think we've got really good insights and views off of Rob in terms of you know how you got here, Rob, and how you do it to be successful. I have to be honest, if, leading up to the interview, Neil said you know you were the MD of C2C, I didn't don't take this wrong. I didn't think you'd be so cuddly in your view, right? I don't know why, but my mindset was that it would have been a lot more firm and authoritative and directive and less inclusive than the way that you articulated it, right? So it just shows how we all have our own paradigm about what that is and that's not what's made you successful or making your company successful, right? Um?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, so I, I would say that you is the, the directive, and you know kind of, uh, you know we work in a, uh, almost military style organization to a certain extent, because the rail is based on that really, um, but you, you can have, you know, strict rules and you know process, yeah, but applied in a way that is human. Yeah, you know leading with kindness, you know it's that's where you get the best out of people yeah, yeah, I think we've learned, and we've learned lots from that conversation.
Speaker 1:So, rob, thank you so much for joining today. You know, I know that our listeners will love this conversation and there's tons to get from this conversation all the way through, and I'm sure your team will also enjoy listening to this podcast when it comes out as well. But no, thank you ever so much for making the time and for sharing your thoughts on leadership, so I'll let you wrap up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, appreciate that. And, guys, if you've got any questions for Rob or if you've got any views you want to share when this gets published, feel free to do that. This will probably be out on LinkedIn as well, rob, so that creates the platform if people want to make comment or raise questions, and they're free to do that. Guys, keep listening in, please, go, keep taking a view of all the things we've got to say. You know it's difficult finding great guests like Rob, but please, you know, take all the learning you can out of what you've just heard here, and we look forward to bringing you another episode in the days to come. Thank you very much, guys.
Speaker 1:Thanks everyone, Cheers.
Speaker 3:Take care Bye. Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thubron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe. Give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectivescom for all the episodes and more resources and support.