Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Leadership Across Company Stages
What makes a truly exceptional leader? Is it their charisma, technical expertise, or perhaps something more adaptable? In this illuminating conversation with Paul Kells, senior technology director and digital transformation expert, we uncover the surprising truth that effective leadership fundamentally depends on context.
Drawing from his extensive experience managing organizations of various sizes—from leading 1,500 employees across 18 countries to working with nimble startups—Paul reveals how leadership must evolve through different business stages. The controlling, metrics-focused approach that stabilizes a mature company would suffocate a growth-stage business, while the collaborative, network-building style perfect for startups might lack the discipline needed in established enterprises.
Paul shares a pivotal moment from his own leadership journey when his team delivered brutal feedback: "We love you to bits, but if you don't stop micromanaging us, we're all leaving." This catalyzed his evolution toward creating an environment where, years later, he proudly realized his team had surpassed his own capabilities—the ultimate leadership achievement.
We explore the critical importance of transparency during organizational change, particularly in mergers and acquisitions. Paul explains how anxiety flourishes in uncertainty, and while complete transparency isn't always possible, providing clear direction significantly reduces resistance. The conversation highlights situational leadership—the ability to adapt your approach to meet changing circumstances rather than relying on a single fixed style.
Whether you're navigating corporate transformations, building a startup team, or simply looking to elevate your leadership effectiveness, this episode offers practical insights on matching your leadership approach to your organization's specific needs. The most successful leaders aren't defined by a single method but by their ability to provide what their organization needs at each stage of its journey.
Like, subscribe, and share your thoughts with us! Visit leadershipdetectives.com for more resources to enhance your leadership journey.
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives. With Albert Joseph and Neil Thubron, this is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today, or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
Speaker 2:Good morning, good afternoon, welcome everyone. Welcome to the Leadership Detectives looking for the clues to great leadership. Neil, good to see you, buddy, how are you? You?
Speaker 1:well, I'm okay, thank you. Yeah, not bad at all. I have now recovered, I can say, from my High Rocks experience, which maybe we'll talk about in another episode.
Speaker 2:There are some lessons there. There are some lessons there, so we will. There are some lessons there, for sure.
Speaker 1:Today we have a different story today we're I'm really excited to be joined by, uh, someone I've known for nearly a year now, uh, paul kells. So paul is a senior technology director, expert in technology investments, digital transformation and operational strategy, and a small business investor, and a really interesting person when it comes to his breadth of experience and knowledge from um the the roles he's held. So welcome, paul. Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 1:Hi guys nice to be here, welcome paul, so talking here, paul, as this, as we said, um in, as albert said in the intro, it's all about finding the clues of great leadership. So the experience you've had and all the leadership roles you had, and the senior leadership roles you had, what would you say are some of the key ingredients of great leadership?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's such a difficult question because I think there are so many different contexts in which leaders operate that you really have to understand what's important in that context for the leader to do and the leader to be.
Speaker 3:So you know, as an example, I would have observed CEOs in some of the companies I worked for and in some cases they were dealing with a growth market, vast expansion, things needing to happen really fast, ideas quick and implemented and generating revenue In other markets later on, perhaps after the growth cycle. I was dealing with CEOs who were in really difficult situations of really huge competition, saturation of the market, needing to reinvent, needing to double down on reducing costs, on transforming the business, on doing really, really hard things, and what those leaders needed in those different contexts were a really different set of attributes, I would say and yeah, I reflected on that a lot because I just left a corporate career largely of 20, 25 years where there were very different situations and there are people I take away from that as being great leaders for very different reasons, I suppose, and around my way, I haven't answered your question, but there's lots of different types of leadership.
Speaker 2:But maybe we could drill into that right. You've just said that you've had many leaders, or you've seen many leaders in different, but should we pick out some of the good and some of the not so good? What have you seen in some of the better leaders that you worked with? We don't have to go by name.
Speaker 3:I don't think we do that here um, so, and maybe there is that some some some common, some common themes will emerge actually. So I work for leaders who you know at a very senior level board level, ceo level who are reluctant to relinquish any control of the business. Yeah, and to the extent that it would feel like you're being called to the headmaster study to defend why the numbers are what the numbers are. Yeah, which I had that experience with one leader and you have to admire their ability to control the company. Yeah, at that level, and you have to think, wow, this guy is just so across it. It's quite impressive, but also it kind of makes this culture of people feeling a bit oppressed, frankly. Yeah, and you never get the best out of people in that situation and there's something of a waiting game that develops, you know, to almost see that person off and maybe then pick up afterwards, which you know it's, it's. You can never say what the best answer is, because that person might have delivered what the shareholders wanted him to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in that time frame well, yeah, I guess that's, but could they have delivered more with a different style?
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is it right and I think CEOs in particular and, you know, board members are often incredibly strong personalities with, you know, a great amount of self-confidence in what they do, self-confidence in what they do, that they, they, they can often shadow, you know, or cast a shadow over the people who, if they just step back a bit, could actually do it. Do that better, you know, get that better outcome do you think?
Speaker 2:do you think they felt? Do you think they felt that was required of them in that senior role? Do you think they felt that was required of them in that senior role? Do you think they felt that they had to demonstrate being in control and not sharing that control? Do you think they think that was the right thing to do?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel so. I mean, and I've, you know, I've seen that, I've seen that throughout my career actually and it's not just a old school mentality of 20 years ago this is still happens today. Um and uh, it's um, it's not that they can just, you know, not have any controls in place, but it's more that, um, it's very difficult and I I can't imagine the pressure that you're under. Where you're looking at a three-year plan, you've got probably the incentives that you're going to sacrifice everything and anything to make it happen and by that I mean financial and you then will exert all of your willpower to make that happen, regardless of what you might be told along the way and regardless of how things might change. So it does. You know those dynamics that get created when CEOs and senior people are put in place and have very strict targets to hit, and in a changing industry and a changing market, that's that's it's very hard to do. I mean, it's a very hard job so.
Speaker 1:So with the you talked to when you started off, about a faster growing business needing a different leadership style to a more established business, the this the kind of autocratic control leadership you just just described. Where would that fit best?
Speaker 3:I think that's to me that's in the established business, the incumbent business, which is trying to defend share, which is trying to tell itself maybe that they're changing and they're going through a transformation, but in reality they're not. You're talking about the opposite side of that, which is a challenger, someone who's growing fast, and I spoke to one earlier today, a CEO of a smaller company. They are just so open to anything. They want to learn all the time. I had a call earlier and this guy he just blew my head off because he just didn't stop asking me questions, didn't stop challenging what I was saying, not challenging in a you're an idiot or that's not right, but challenging in a oh really, what about this, what about that, how about the other? And just constantly learning, even though he was the CEO of this company that's doing really well but is in a growth mode. You know it's almost like his company situation is almost his mindset. You know it's growing, everything's growing. How do you accommodate that?
Speaker 1:I love that, I love that. So the mindset of the CEO is aligned with the growth of the business and that questioning. I mean there's a clue for great leadership is, you know, constantly be learning and don't think you know everything. Yeah, so when you're talking to that ceo, what kind of leadership style do you think they have? I mean, I know you've only just met him, but what kind of leadership style do you think they have?
Speaker 3:or need. Certainly knew top to bottom what his business was doing, but wasn't in the nuts and bolts of it and was saying the team are doing it, I'm off scoring money from investors, right, okay?
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, yeah, so that sounds like a very trusting style, right? He believes his team's running the business. It's not his job to do that. He completely trusts that they are doing that right.
Speaker 3:But I think he knows what his priority is. His priority in that instance, albert, was to he needed money to grow the business, yeah, so he needed to be out getting the money yeah, yeah, okay, how old was this company? Uh, they're uh 10 years maybe okay, okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So we're not fully saying startup, but we're saying there's still pretty fresh in the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Maybe 300,000 customers.
Speaker 3:So it's not, it's not tiny but it's you know yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've had some fun with some startups recently as well, and that that is a. That is an interesting world that I I wasn't fully, you know, aware of before, because you get such a variety there as you might imagine. Yeah, yeah, you don't get people. You know who've come out of the um. You know management class 101 in corporate. Yeah, yeah, actually, they've just got everything going on. You know, they've got ideas sort of whizzing and popping everywhere, and then they maybe might not know how to run a meeting and they're the leader of the company. It's just so much less mature.
Speaker 3:But what I have seen there are these sort of almost like really, really I don't know how to describe it but sort of really charismatic people who just bring people with them. You know, they just attract people because they speak so passionately about their offer, whatever it is product or service, and whatever they're executing on, and they're really interesting because you just look at them and think, wow, where are you going to be in three, five, ten years time? You know, and this is like a 25 year old, you know, um, I think that must be a great place for um, young talent to really find itself, because, um, it's easy to go into a corporate job. Maybe that gets boxed away a bit.
Speaker 1:and when you look at those so those leaders of the smaller businesses and I guess we're talking micro businesses almost with some of those I think, yeah, how does their leadership work? That need to be different to a division director in a corporate.
Speaker 3:They, you know, I would put them. It feels a little bit like they're all on a spectrum, where the guy I described, who's the CEO of a smaller company, he's in the middle of the spectrum and he's driving a degree of operational rigor but at the same time, he's still learning and opened anything, yeah whereas the startup guys are, um, they are basically inventing the company every day, every day, something new every day. How do you make the product? Where's the manufacturer coming from? Is it china? Is indonesia? Where is it? How are we going to build people? I mean, everything is literally being created. I'm sure that's the lure of it, because it's so sort of empowering to feel like you can just create everything. So the leadership there is much more about collaboration and helping everyone to get the best out of themselves in that creative process. I think it's not someone who's standing dictating to everyone, saying do this, do that.
Speaker 1:And how do they do that? How do they help get the best out of people? What have you seen?
Speaker 3:Lots of connecting people. You know, speak to so-and-so, speak to so-and-so. The networks in those smaller companies are really important. It's why, you know, I went and visited Cambridge for a couple of days because I was lucky to know someone there who's in that scene and got toured around and I think it was the Innovation Centre. They've got this great setup where maybe it's I don't know 30 or 50 offices which are space given over to the startups and they all do their startup. But they're all constantly mingling together and you know there's a theme to them. There's tech, there's pharma, there's, you know, sort of renewables or clean tech or whatever. So there are sort of common threads and the networks are being established which allow them to just rapidly solve problems without kind of being stuck for too long, I think. I think just that sort of ecosystem. There's a real synergy in it.
Speaker 2:There's no doubt there's some variance in style needed, right? I guess some of the components of leadership would be the same. Can I just change chat, change tax slightly? Um, and, and looking at your uh profile, paul, you yourself have, you know, had to deal with some pretty serious situations, right? I mean you were leading, you know, 18 countries once upon a time in in the european environment. Let's talk about your leadership for a little bit. How, how did you operate in that kind of environment? Just just to say back on that particular role, did those people report to you directly?
Speaker 3:um. So I I was in a center of excellence there which I created, and we had this odd relationship with the countries whereby we would support them and guide them and ultimately they would report to us, but not on a sort of traditional FTE basis. It was more sort of matrix management, if you like, which actually made it really challenging. Challenging because if you wanted to get something executed, you had to almost negotiate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've both been there.
Speaker 2:It's not about their annual review, it's not about their pay rise, it's any of those things, sorry, neil. So how did you motivate them, paul, to to?
Speaker 3:to come on the journey with you. Well, we were trying to instigate in that very specific instance, it was about how can we use data. Back then, you know, it was a new it was it was kind of new back then to use data to, to, to drive decision making, and, and so we created a platform that allowed you to, you know, use data and statistics to allow them to invest capital better in their countries. Yeah, so there was a lot of trying to just show people the benefit of what we had delivered to their day-to-day why it would be helpful for them, and not try to whack them over the head with the just do this because the company wants you to do it.
Speaker 3:I mean, honestly, I've spent so much time in the last five, six years going through different transactions, mergers, m&a of various sorts, and it's incredible how much time people spend talking about, you know, the assets that are transferring and all of the complex technology, and very little about what the people might actually feel about all of it and how can you motivate them to to give it down. Frankly, um, that that's really hard. That's really really hard. And, um, especially in technology companies as well, you know, I think they're worse at it and I mean we.
Speaker 1:we've both seen um mergers in the technology space and and lived through some pretty major mergers in the technology space and to be honest, I can't think of one that went well. But when you think about that leadership, what advice would you have for the listeners to? How do you lead during that time when you're merging different cultures, different businesses together?
Speaker 3:when you're merging different cultures, different businesses together. I think it's really important to be super transparent with people and not think you're protecting them in some way by leaving them out of certain conversations. Now, you can't, obviously, as a hundred, a thousand people collectively make decisions about what the right thing to do is, but you can develop an approach which informally consults and discusses and engages people in those events. Because, honestly and I mentioned this word before, I mean I've kind of stuck on this word a bit at the minute for large corporates, the inertia that's created when you're not bringing people with you, you just can't do anything and it's a really corrosive environment and nobody enjoys it. Nobody enjoys it and it's such a own goal, but it's totally addressable.
Speaker 3:I read this when I was looking into doing it in a different way In my last role. I read a great case study of and I hope it was true NTT DoCoMo in Japan, where they had to go through a process, a very painful process, and maybe tens of thousands of people were moved out of the business to do other things. So it wasn't an easy process at all. Very large company, maybe hundreds of thousands. Um, now they just very transparent with the workforce. Here's where we're going in the company. Here's what it might mean for the roles in the company. Here are the things that maybe you could think about.
Speaker 3:You know, if in 6, 12, 18, 24 months, at each step of the way, you think you don't want to do it, they had this great thing, I think, where they set up a little startup fund for people and they could go out and do a startup of their own If they were close to retirement they get early retirement, but it was just a very transparent way of handling the uncertainty in the employee base, which is just manifest whenever you have a big change like that. Everyone is really anxious and not feeling it. So I think leadership in corporate often, you know, comes down to those sorts of issues. Because of the changes in corporate and the whole more general theme of digitalisation and AI will do the same again. It's going to cause huge shifts in the ways of working and you just need to be, I think, super upfront and transparent with employees about it and you might not get it right, because it might change in 12 months, but at least you're being honest with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, months, but at least you're, you're, you're, you know, being being honest with them. Yeah, and how do you kind of square the circle of being transparent with people and thinking about the um, them as individuals?
Speaker 3:and driving the business performance while all this change is going on? Yeah, absolutely, and um, yeah, absolutely. And that's very true, neil, and I don't think I ever got it right myself because I would have been conscious of the targets that I was having to hit. You've got to find a way of building that in to the wider dialogue that you're having with people, because actually the thing which maybe is missed is that all of those people, or the vast majority of them, actually really love their job. Yeah, there's always a minority that aren't, and that's the same in any population, but the vast majority really love their job and would like to do it if you let them um.
Speaker 3:So I think, I think, uh, I think, that transparency is, is, is, a good thing. Um, I mean, when you've got a business target which says take 20 out of the business from a cost standpoint, you know that is super hard. There's, there's a degree of transparency that you can't do there, which you know you have to. You have to handle um, um behind the scenes, at least until you've got a very clear plan for it. But, but for the most part, we try to be open about it I think.
Speaker 2:I think I think what you've talked about there, paul, is a level of bringing a level of certainty to the conversation. Right, yeah, because that certainly is what causes a lot of pressure, pain, stress for people if they don't have certainty now, certainty might not be the message you want to hear, but I think it's a tough decision for a leader how much you share what you're allowed to share, but the more certainty I think what you've said is more certainty you brought, the more that people could come on the journey with you and and decide where they were going to be in that future yeah, absolutely there are some.
Speaker 3:There are some constraints in the uk I remember. Now I'll learn about um. There's only certain things you can't say, because if you do say them, it triggers consultation and you're in like all sorts of trouble so unfortunately, actually unfortunately, because maybe it's it's better if you're able to have those conversations. But yeah, I agree with what you said there absolutely and what's the?
Speaker 1:what's the? The largest organization you led um.
Speaker 3:So internal staff of 1500 and then probably several thousands in the partner staff outside.
Speaker 1:Okay, which I thought it was that kind of number. So when you look at leading that size of organisation, what are some of the tips you give to someone in that position to get your vision, your message, your values, the energy down through the organisation so that you've got thousands of people that are aligned behind the same thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we used to talk about it all the time. Honestly, no, but it does preoccupy a lot of a leader's mind, I think. I can only guess it would be true for other leaders. I'm speaking for myself and my peers, and I would have discussed it with them, but I think, yes, it's easy to define that vision and this is where we want to be. This is how we're going to get there big strategic themes. Here's the specific objectives we have and the key results we need to hit, and here's how we're going to set up the organization to do it. So that's the kind of ABC of how to do it.
Speaker 3:The culture, though, that you're talking about, that is so hard, and you know there's lots of things like practical things to do. You know, having all hands calls, having road shows, um, having posters up in the office that say these are the things, or whatever, whatever it is. But at the same time, it's about the leadership you then appoint and the leadership they then appoint, and that kind of cascade of the right behaviors and values. Um, because what I found was, in a couple of occasions, I was dealing with two different organizations coming together from different backgrounds and actually coming together with very different cultures and I'm not sure even after three or four years that changed, despite trying right, because in those bodies of employees 20, 30 years plus experience, two or three years of something different than me wasn't going to change them, or at least not to the extent, maybe, that we would have thought it would. So that was kind of interesting, I mean, that was eye-opening really, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Actually what just occurs to me as you say, that is and we lived through this right where people get companies were brought into IBM and they were integrated into the IBM way of doing things. Have you ever seen where two companies come together and they create a new culture instead of one old culture with the other old culture? How do you create a new culture?
Speaker 3:No, and my whole experience. I've seen the sorts of mergers that we're talking about here five times in the same market granted in the telco or the tech market but I have never seen them create one new culture. Maybe that says something for the companies they came from, that they were so strong in culture, but I think it takes something special. Did you see it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting. I hadn't really thought about it before, but there's almost a third way, isn't there Rather than one? Or the other. It's the third.
Speaker 3:Well, I would say this right In the recent years that I've kind of reflected on that, I did think that the only way that happens is where there's an external force that causes the employee base to change quite dramatically in terms of its organisation, its location, everything else. And I'll give you an example right In the telco world at the minute, there's a huge theme for outsourcing. Yeah, you've got all of these mergers that have happened in the past. They're all really struggling to transform, they're struggling to achieve their targets, going with huge, very focused global players like Infosys, technohindra I mean you guys all know IBM even Going with those big global players, they kind of ingest the functions and create new ones right with new cultures, and that's quite a serious thing.
Speaker 1:Now and I was going to ask you about outsourcing how do you, how do you lead when you're having to lead through an outsource process? Well, and I mean, albert works in an outsourcing world, so I guess it's a question for both of you. But, yeah, so so you kind of some of your teams being outsourced, someone's being kept. You know, how do you, how do you lead through that process?
Speaker 3:you want to go first, albert I?
Speaker 2:I. I think I think the challenge you've got there is don't forget, people are thinking about themselves. That's what they're thinking about. So so, whether they're working for you, or whether they're working for someone that you, you put into an outsource, or when they get tubeed across or whatever, they're just thinking about themselves, right, and what they need to know is that there's something there that they want to follow, that they believe in, and that someone's going to be looking after them, and I think it's that simple, paul. I don't know what you think. I think it's that basic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree. It's a transition for people where, to your point, they don't mind, as long as they know where they're going, what they're going to get, who they're going to be working for, and terms and conditions are ultra important. Some other people then, you know, maybe it's the high performers, maybe it's other people who have just been waiting for a chance to go. Anyway, take an opportunity to leave.
Speaker 2:And that could be a good thing, right? In many cases, it's a great thing for them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but maybe it takes that for those people who do move across to actually change because they're in a completely different environment. Yeah, the company they're moving into has probably got a totally different structure, a totally different culture and approach, and that then unlocks the change that the original, the original company, couldn't achieve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if I spoke to one of those directors that worked for you when you had a big organization, paul, how would they describe you as a leader?
Speaker 3:Um, I was pretty hands-off, except where I felt I could add value.
Speaker 3:I mean, one of the last meetings I had before I left, we were off-site in a hotel in Cornwall, which you know isn't necessarily a business meeting, but we said we'd do it at a stretch.
Speaker 3:And I said to them I was very honest and I said this is, you know, one of the best days for me, because actually now we've got a team, you guys, and you're all better than me, you can do your roles better than me, and actually that's fantastic. I've never been so pleased and I told them this story of how the very first team that I managed, you know I um, they were brilliant as well and they were like this little niche team of of data, economic software, people who I, who I, who I managed in a strategy role and they were fantastic. I've been with them for about six weeks and one of them came to me one day and said paul, you know what? We love you to bits, but if you don't stop micromanaging us, we're all leaving. So I felt like I'd be on a journey then to get to the team, which I didn't have to do anything for because they were all better than me on it and they could just do it.
Speaker 2:so that that was it yeah right you've kind of provided the answer to a question I had written down here. When you were talking about the, I think you said 1,800, 1,400 people. There's clearly tiers of leadership within there, right, yeah, so, talking about what you've just done there as a comparison, what would you call that as the comparisons in leading senior people from leading less senior people?
Speaker 3:senior people from leading less senior people. Yeah, um, those senior people are probably, if not wanting your job, wanting your boss's job. They're really dynamic. You know, growth minded people, um, and they're not just there just to hammer away at a target that you give them. You know they are people and they've got a lot. They put a lot of commitment in. They're probably sacrificing some of their personal life that they shouldn't be, but they probably are and they want to grow. You know, they want to network, they want to coach, they want to learn just as much as you do and maybe more so. Yeah, so I was very conscious of that because I had a young. I was very conscious of that because I had a young. I set up a young team of directors and they were all really brilliant at what they did, but actually they all had that in common, you know.
Speaker 2:I like what you said there. They don't want your job, they want your boss's job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no Well look, I mean they were ambitious, right, and so was I at that time. I mean, I still am in a different way, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting. That's probably a good place to start wrapping up. Actually and I've just been looking through my notes here at some of the clues that have come out of this episode so far is that spectrum of different styles of leadership, from, you know, the micro company through the medium sized company, to the growing company, to the more established company. There's different types of leadership needed at different times, and I guess one thought to add to that is actually a question for you, paul, rather than me sharing a thought can someone transform from being a leader that grows in that growth period to being a leader who then manages in the stable period? Can that be the same person or is that two different people?
Speaker 3:yeah, um, that's interesting. I think people go through, if they're open to it, lots of change in their style. And you know, having gone up to the sort of corporate role where you spend a lot of time looking at dashboards and looking at metrics and you know playing playing corporate monopoly, so to speak. Going back to look at startups and small businesses, I realized that I've still got that within me, or at least I can develop that. And actually you know it's a terrible cliche phrase. But situational leadership, yeah, you can walk into the situation and realize, ah, I need to be this, here and this, and you know it's not the same as what I just was. I think that's fine, I mean, and I think people are capable of that, and whether they enjoy it is another matter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, in the situations you saw, saw in the m&a situations you saw, would there be somebody who was the leader during the transition phase and then somebody who came in? Yeah, they would have deliberately changed out. The leader is that?
Speaker 3:yeah, definitely, I've seen that where, um, you have someone who is, you know, brilliant, very fast decision-making almost not crisis management, but similar to crisis management. It's just getting shit done and making the transition happen and, you know, putting out fires, and with that person, you know they couldn't do that for five years, yeah, yeah. So it's like horses for courses, isn't it? In that respect?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen those type of leaders as well.
Speaker 3:Because they didn't start starting fires, because they like putting them out exactly no, exactly they do, yeah, they do, and everybody's like god, when's this guy leaving?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah. We just want to cut the calm, stable environment. So another great insight as well and a clue there and there were some great clues around being transparent, creating that inertia. I love the. What you were talking about a few minutes ago about work, almost working yourself out of a role because you've surrounded yourself with people that are better than you and they can then run it. I mean, that's a great ambition for any leader is to become superfluous, to require what.
Speaker 3:You know what happened there, neil? Just because I did that, that group started to fracture Because they were so good, yeah, yeah, and there were ambitions within it. Yeah, you know. So it was interesting to watch that, actually, I created a, created an animal. Well, yeah, I mean mean, but this is it. Nothing is ever static.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's always changing that's an interesting insight but, honestly, for people listening to this episode, there's some great clues all the way through that and there'll be a summary uh below the episode on uh, whatever podcast you listen to it from. Um albert, do you want anything you want to say?
Speaker 2:the only thing that I think also just to to point out that it was. It was fantastic that paul ended up referencing something like situational leadership right, which is as relevant today as it's ever been. Right, people would say, well, some of that's old school, it's not, it's as. It's as relevant now as it's ever been in terms of understanding the situation you find yourselves and you can adapt. You'll have an actual style that you would prefer, but you could adapt, paul. You got something there. You just it's that book, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, it is. So you've got the. There's two books that I always recommend to new managers, because when we we were both managers in ibm at like 20, early 20s, and we went through the same management training, and there's's Ken Blanchard's One Minute Manager and the Situational Leadership are the two books that still get used today in first-line management training? Yeah, exactly, and I still talk about them today with my clients as well. Yeah, indeed, still very, very valid. Yeah, but no, look, paul, I just want to say a big thank you to you for taking the time to join us today. Paul, I just want to say say a big thank you to you for taking the time to to join us today. Some great insights there. Thanks for for sharing those, uh today.
Speaker 2:And, albert, I'll let you close on yeah, really appreciate your time, paul, and and the fact that you just went into this despite trying to get neil to give you a briefing about what we were going to do to you and left you to go in cold, but but it meant that you could be, you know, your best elf in terms of just your natural answers to that. So now I really appreciate what you've taken us through and and I think you're quite a unique guest actually in terms of what you've done and what you've come through. In fact, we'll be talking about it. Just before you, we came on the call, paul, what was your day today?
Speaker 1:tell us what your day oh yeah, your day today, yeah what did you do today?
Speaker 3:today. Well, I had an introduction with the CEO of a company, and so we had a long chat, which was quite challenging for me because he was a very clever guy and then the second thing I did was I put an offer in for a flooring company that I'm trying to buy, which is a small business. So, yeah, I'm sort of bouncing around different topics at the minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, utilising your skills in many different areas. Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3:Hopefully it'll pay off.
Speaker 1:We'll see, I'm sure it will, paul, I'm sure it will.
Speaker 2:So great to call on all your experience and listen to your stories. Really appreciate your time, so yeah.
Speaker 1:So quick one thing for our um, for our listeners. Uh, please like subscribe, hit the, give it, leave us comments, let us know your thoughts, share some ideas. We'd really appreciate that. And uh, yeah, thank you to you all and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode.
Speaker 4:All the best guys, take care speak to you soon, cheers thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thubron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectivescom for all the episodes and more resources and support. Thank you.