Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Leadership's Human Side
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives. With Albert Joseph and Neil Thubron, this is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today, or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
Speaker 2:Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, welcome everyone. Welcome back to another edition of Leadership Detectives looking for the clues to great leadership. Hey, neil, hey Dean, good to see you. Buddy, you well.
Speaker 1:I'm fantastic, thank you, and I'm very excited to be joined today by a special guest and I was going to say a friend, a work friend of mine, a work friend of mine I've got to know really well over the last few years Ben Palmer OBE, who is president of MRSAT Maritime and a member of the Viasat executive leadership team. Ben, welcome, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3:It's great to be here, guys, thanks, thanks for a cheery welcome on a sunny Monday afternoon, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:so I'm going to launch straight in because I'm conscious that we want to try and get as much out of this time as we as we can. And I was looking at your LinkedIn profile earlier today, ben, and underneath your name, where most people put their job title, you've got engaging people to drive business performance in technology rich environments. To drive business performance in technology-rich environments, and I wondered what does that say about you, your leadership style?
Speaker 3:that that's what you've put as your title. That's a fair question. Well, I suppose, neil, for me I've worked in I'm not an engineer, it's the first thing to say and I've worked in tech-heavy, engineering-heavy environments most of my career in government and then in industry. And I think you know, in business and in technology businesses, in particular engineering-heavy businesses, there's rightly a focus on facts, there's rightly a focus on data, there's rightly a focus on the things. We kind of measure business performance by numbers and things like that. But ultimately, of course, as in most businesses, it comes down to the people, the talent that we have arraigned in our teams, and the key to progress, uh, is about harnessing and motivating and engaging those people to to to, to drive progress.
Speaker 3:I think there's also probably a clue in in what that strap line says about the sort of career I've had.
Speaker 3:And you know I I've, um, as much as I've just implied I've, I've moved around quite a lot. I've built really a portfolio of experiences rather than a career in the traditional climbing the ladder sense, and I suppose the guiding threads through that have been around, as I said earlier, often being the only non-engineer in an engineering heavy or certainly expert heavy room, often working in businesses, organizations, where you know they've been the leaders in their field, they've been the maybe the lawyers will hate me for saying dominant, but they've been, you know, real, had a lot to be proud about but perhaps are encountering challenges, things that are going to derail them. And I think the third thread has been around. Therefore, oftentimes, the need to engage people in pretty profound change and transformation of what they do and how they do it and you know, all the great technology and the great smarts and the best thinking in the world is going to take us nowhere if we can't really get people and take them on the journey and recognize that and harness that talent and enthusiasm to move forward.
Speaker 1:And so I suppose that's probably to the extent that there was any design thinking around that sentence. That's probably a reasonable summary of of why I think that, like that, yeah, that was a great summary and within that that, that that blended portfolio, that that colorful career what are some key attributes of great leadership that you've seen and you have seen work for you?
Speaker 3:I think I was at Simon Sinek that used to talk about or talks about. You know, it's not what you do, it's why you do it, and I think in any environment that I've worked in, it's been really important to be clear about mission and purpose. Why, why are we here? Um, as I said earlier, I'm not a engineer. By training I was. I mean, I to the extent I was trained in anything. It was in economics and political theory and philosophy, uh, but I, you know, and and so I was reading aristotle at 19 when others were, others were studying quadratic equations and things like that.
Speaker 3:But one of the things I've always thought was important is not only to ask ourselves what we're going to do but why we're going to do it, and to ask ourselves, therefore, what we want to be as well as what we want to do as an organization. And I think that sense of purpose, that sense of mission and that sense of what we can become is quite important. I think that also is particularly redolent in the sorts of environments that I've worked in, where you know whether it's been a crisis to manage, a business to turn around, a program to recover. You know a big growth initiative to drive, having a view of where we're really at today and where we'd like to get to, I think has been important. Um, I don't just mean because it's important to have the vision thing and to be able to point to the stars, but but because I think that really helps to work backwards, if you like, to work right to left, and be able to say, well, what would it take actually to get there, and then what would it take to get to the point, the intermediate step that we've identified, and what would it take to get there, and then to to link that to where we are today. And it enables you to get very practical and very focused and to align people around a set of of quite tangible and and therefore reachable and achievable goals.
Speaker 3:And I think that helps to to boil it down for people. But what do we want to be? What will it take to get there? What are the key levers that we have at our disposal? Recognizing that life's never a blank canvas. There's always freedoms, choices and constraints. But getting clear around those sorts of things and then boiling that down and helping people to understand and simplify and get clarity around what they're trying to achieve, I think has always been a hallmark of good leadership in any of the environments that I've grown up in and seen over the last, I guess, 30, 35 years last, I guess 30, 35 years.
Speaker 2:I think that's great, but I think it hits the attributes that you asked about, right, in terms of looking at the shape of a leader. You've just mentioned it yourself. Ben, right, if you look at your career over 30 years and anyone that wants to go look at your profile and see you've done some great things, but they haven't all been the same, right? Yeah, so what? What are the differences you've seen in the style of leadership you've had to deploy, depending on what each of those roles that you've been in?
Speaker 3:I think you're right, every situation is different. I think there are some and and I've built a kind of portfolio of experience in crisis management in government uh, big change programs driving growth for companies into new markets, operating complex, multidimensional P&Ls in different stages, with different components, with different stages in the development cycle, trying to get businesses profitable again, trying to get them to grow again. They're all different and, of course, the trap that I think is really important to avoid is is to sort of bring that cookie cutter this looks an awful lot like what I did here and deploy oh, this. Therefore, this is what, and I and I and you see a bit of that I have worked with people who thought every problem was a nail and they were the hammer, and that didn't always go so well. I do think, taking time either way, a little bit of time and as much time as the situation requires to sort of diagnose and understand what's going on. You go into an environment. You've got to listen, you've got to hear what's going on, but recognize that there are some environments where the clock is ticking and ultimately it's going to be a question of formulating hypotheses about what's really going on and testing them, but ultimately you're going to have to make choices in the absence of perfect information. The judgment's going to have to come in and you know, in some companies, in some environments where data, where certainty and you know there are a lot of engineering and technical companies where certainty is really important to people from a personal and professional perspective that sometimes isn't the time. So I think having the courage to develop tests and then make choices on the back of some hypotheses, in the time frame which is consistent with the speed of relevance, is really, really important.
Speaker 3:I think, too, there are some environments where you know JFDI applies, I mean a directive style. If the house is on fire, then standing around and asking everybody for their opinions on which exit to use is is probably not the optimal leadership style. There are people they need leadership, they need direction, they need to be, but I think, also recognizing that that's contextual and that once you're out of the building, then there probably is the opportunity to ask people well, you know, which way should we run? Or, uh, how will we, how will we think about build it, what house we want to build next?
Speaker 3:And so playing the, the direct playing and being thoughtful along the kind of direction consultation, uh, curve, I think is is really important and and and that's also important from a kind of engagement and taking people with you perspective people, people want, by and large, to feel empowered. You might come back to how much they like feeling accountable later, because there's a rights and responsibilities piece to that, yeah, but I do think, um, being being capable of flexing when to direct and when actually to stand, to be to be pulling, huddling, huddling together and saying, right, we only solve this together and you guys know it better than me and understand it better than me. So you know, let's give ourselves license to to figure this out together.
Speaker 2:I think that's a skill too thank you for our audience. Guys, just just take on board what ben just said. Right, different situations, different leadership style doesn't mean you can't vary and it's not one size fits all. Just one of the things you said there, ben. I remember our ceo, neil, that we used to work with. You just referred to it. I use this phrase all the time with the team don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yeah, just don't. You know. Sometimes you just have to go with what you've got and there's no more you can do with that. So, excellent, ben, thank you very much so I've got a curious question.
Speaker 1:This comes up quite a lot when I'm coaching leaders that are a layer below you or a layer below that, and you talked about mission purpose, the what, the why. Is that something that only the presidents of the heads of should be thinking about when it comes to leadership, or should every leader, no matter what level, be focusing on their mission, their purpose, their what, their why, with their team?
Speaker 3:well, I, I think, I, I think they should and I hope they are. In the teams that I've run. I've always wanted to see how people take and break down whether it's goals, priorities, objective, that hierarchy of the things that need to get focused on, and how they break those down for themselves, their component pieces, and how they make sense of that for the people that that work for them. I mean, I, I am in favor, and I've always been in favor, of being be able to draw a golden thread between the document that you ceo presents to the street of the market or to at the all hands and being able to be really clear for people right down the august or what they're. You know, almost to ask the question if you're not, if you can't see how your job is contributing to that set of goals and objectives, then we should all be asking ourselves the question of why not and what can we do to clarify that for people, right? I think you know so oftentimes, particularly when you're in an urgent, volatile and certain complex, ambiguous environment where change is required, so often the guys at the bottom of the organization, the guys on the front line, if you like, are very clear about what's not working or what needs to be done. And sometimes there's a real need for that translation mechanism and the clarity from the top to be really absorbed and digested in the middle. And I think sometimes you find that you know helping the folks a layer or two down to ingest and then be able to articulate with clarity for their people what we're trying to achieve and the centrality of the mission is. Is is oftentimes the challenge, and and so I do hope and I have spent a lot of time coaching and helping teams that I work with to try to distill down and provide that clarity right through the organization that's linkable up to those high-level goals and objectives, because for me that's how you drive velocity into an organization. It's how you drive, you know, and oftentimes you know it isn't necessary.
Speaker 3:Albert just made a really important point about the enemy of perfect being the enemy of the good, and I violently subscribe to that. You know, figuring out, taking too long to figure out the perfect answer, is a real trap and I have seen it quite a lot. Oftentimes I've come into leadership teams where people have been almost paralyzed by that and the solution quite often is to say what's the no regrets move If we moved, just move. What's the no regrets? Move. If we moved, just move.
Speaker 3:You know, if you're under fire, some of your more articulate listeners will look me up and they'll see that I worked in the national security environment for a while. Sometimes just moving is when you're under fire, then hunkering down and it may not be the right answer, and just moving and getting to a slightly better place and then drawing breath and figuring out what the next step is. That incremental approach is is so important and, uh, you know, being able to drive that velocity into the org and get folks aligned to move and to move at a speed that's consistent with a, with with market relevance, I think is is oftentimes an important trick, can we just drill down a little bit in what you just said there around getting people to move, and because I understand the concept of what you just said, but how would you advise a leader to make that happen, especially in that crisis environment?
Speaker 1:So, from your experience of what you've seen when you were in that world, from your experience of what you've seen when you were in that world, what are some of the leadership things you need to do, some that our listeners could take away?
Speaker 3:I think I've spent a few cycles now coming into teams which have been, for whatever reason, suffering from a downturn in performance. They've been, if you like, been great. The analogy I sometimes use they wake up every morning telling themselves they're Muhammad Ali, they're the king of the world, and by lunchtime they're sort of scratching their head a bit, and by tea time they're feeling pretty depressed about where they where they really stand, and and so um, I've come into organizations where there's been a you know, a proliferation of quote strategic initiatives designed to solve that. Everybody's got a good idea and, frankly, they are all good ideas because they've come from people that are experts and really understand the environment. But if you've got 26 top priorities, it follows that, uh, none of them are going to be top priority if you, if you aren't focused on the three or four crux of the matter, things that will make a difference. So I think you know, one of the things I've always tried to do in those situations is bring some discipline, some rigor and discipline around, around that prioritization process. The other thing I think oftentimes is that people have a habit of saying to themselves it'll be all right, the levers we've pulled already will come good, we just need to wait a bit. And you know, sometimes that might be true. And you know, sometimes that might be true, but oftentimes I think people underestimate the challenge they've got and overestimate the extent to which doing the same things we've always done slightly better will actually make a difference. And so, you know, one of the things I've got quite skilled at is coming in and challenging people in a constructive, hopefully inclusive way around. Are you sure you got this tape, lads? Uh, because if we haven't, we better. We better make some different choices sooner rather than later. And I guess the third piece of that is is is really helping and shining a torch on just where we're at.
Speaker 3:I have a picture that I've often had my finance guy draw on and my current team and actually the last team, but I will remember this with fondness I've had a graph prepared of the last five years' annual five-year plans, which all go upwards from the left-hand side to the right-hand side of the last five years annual five-year plans, which all go upwards from the left-hand side to the right-hand side of the of the graph overlaid with the line of actuals of what actually was delivered, which was a, is a solid back line that goes down from the left-hand side to the right side, right and and oftentimes I've invited people to think about that's the story that the investors or the board or the other people in the company, or even our customers, are seeing about us. What do you take from that? And what you take from that is you've over delivered and under promised, and we probably want good salesmen. Neil and Albert, you probably want to be in a slightly different place. You know you probably want to be in a slightly different place.
Speaker 3:So helping people to get to clarity about where we're really at and how we're perceived and then get real about that has been something that I've oftentimes had to spend effort or energy around at the beginning and then, because all of the you know, the people in the teams are generally good guys and girls. They're not bad people, but they've got to be helped to confront the challenge we face and they've got to then be invited into the safe space of. So how are we going to work together to fix it? And I think that safe space concept is important because oftentimes people feel that the notion of accountability turns into one of blame and it becomes about who's who's, who's at fault, as opposed to we are where we are.
Speaker 3:Everybody makes mistakes. The world, you know the world chain. We can all come up with reasons why. But actually, let's, let's focus on now where, where do we move? What do we do? How do we get the thing? How do we get the boat moving faster through the water? And that's been important in some of the leadership journeys that I've been on over the last 10, 15 years.
Speaker 2:During the last 10, 15 minutes, ben, I get a flavour. It might just be the way you present it, but I get a flavour of what it's like to work with Ben Palmer. Do you deliberately set out to create a culture or does the culture develop?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I I do want to build a high-performance culture. I mean that, by the way, for the listeners of other podcasts in a small h, small p, small c kind of way. But I think you know I've always wanted to and I know you guys have a lot. I can see Neil's medals hanging in the background. I have some experience of playing sport at a reasonable level and coaching as well, and I think trying to build that sense of you know I talk about four things really Focus can we get focused as a team? Can we build a phalanx I've used the analogy of the rugby scrum versus the sort of the ruck, the mall where everyone's pulling in different directions and if you look at a scrum it's really driving. The energy's been pushed Can we get focused on the key priorities? Can we align on that? And can we build the alignment horizontally across the organization, so not just vertically down in our silos, but can we build that horizontal sense of alignment, including with the folks that maybe we rely upon in different parts of the company or our supply chain or other folks? We need to build that sense of not only what we're trying to achieve, but how do we work together effectively and be aligned on that.
Speaker 3:I mentioned empowerment and accountability earlier. I, I want to work with people that want to step up and take responsibility, want to be empowered, want to harness the talents, the skills, the enthusiasms, the intellect of the energies of their teams. The flip side of that, albert, is I've always tried to create an environment where we hold people accountable, and again, I don't just mean in the sense of huh, we hit the target, well, done accountable, or we didn't hit the target, who's to blame? Accountable? Accountable in the sense of accountable to ourselves, accountable to our teams, accountable to our customers and accountable in the sense of learning from experience. We hold ourselves accountable. Yeah, I have, you know, I want to create teams which people wanna join because of those attributes. Yeah, it's important that you know, occasionally to have a laugh, it's a bit of fun, yeah, but but my sense is if you can combine those four attributes with a, with a set of clear priorities and folky around what you're trying to achieve, more times than not, it is fun, yeah, because you bind people into doing something they get, they get value from um. So, yeah, no, I, I and I obviously you. You get.
Speaker 3:You inherit what you inherit and you have to think about what's the culture today, how close are we to that and what? What steps? And you know rocking up and saying we're gonna have a new culture. Well, look, you know, I you don't. You have to iterate towards it and as a leader, you have to be patient and you have to recognize that not everything will be how you want it on day one. It might take, you might not have the right folk, you might not have the right structure, you might not have the right priorities, and you know there isn't a magic wand or a sort of immediate solution that enables that to change. You have to work at it day in, day out, to nudge people, pull people, encourage people to get to where you want them to get to. And occasionally you have to bring, you have to refresh the team and bring in some talent and some complimentary folk that are going to get there, help you to get there quicker.
Speaker 2:Maybe even a good coach, if you know any good coaches.
Speaker 3:if you know any good coaches I know any good coaches, I'll let you know it's interesting.
Speaker 1:actually, I did a, I did a chat gpt on uh, ben quotes about ben and one of the things it links to what you just talked about was it said ben has a track record, uh, of focus on recruiting and empowering talented individuals to drive organisational success, which sounds like you're building that organisation that you've just described and that culture, and I guess what are some of the clues there in leadership for building that high-performing organisation?
Speaker 3:I suppose we haven't. There's an important thing here about. I mean I'm flattered by ChatGP's description. I might change that to be my strap line. Actually, thank you, yeah, but I think I mean I've talked and we've talked a little bit about, you know, the leader into the team and the attributes of the team and culture and things like that. It really talks about the leader as the leader and I think authenticity, approachability, authenticity, building that sense of trust with the team, that you aren't here to screw it up in a paper ball and throw it in the bin, that actually this is something we're going to fix together.
Speaker 3:That oftentimes I've delighted in being not only the non-engineer in the room but the non-expert in the room, which means I get to ask the really dumb questions and most of the time they turn out to be really dumb. The more dumb questions I ask, the more interesting and less dumb questions I get to think about and then start posing, and I think that builds credibility. People like to be listened to, they like to share, but they also like it when you come back with a better question, because it shows that you've learned something. Hopefully, I think people want to be led by somebody too that can make an impact and I think the thing that I've always thought about what makes me tick, why do I want to be doing what I do? I want to make an impact and I think one of you know the thing that I I've always thought about what makes me tick why do I want to be doing what I do? I, I want to make an impact. I want to come into a situation that's where perfect the purpose is is important.
Speaker 3:It matters. You know, making making a difference matters and making an impact, uh, which will make things hopefully better together with people, is in, is important. It follows, therefore, that people respond well if you can make those quick early steps and you can start to move things. I think that's why moving is important. You develop your own self-confidence, but you also develop the confidence of the team and you build credibility. That actually will stand you in good stead as you start to know more and start to think stead, as you start to start to know more and start to think about what you need to do to change and drive progress, and I think that helps to build trust and credibility with the team. I think there's also a thing around authenticity as a human being, and what I mean by that is we often talk about the importance of humility in leaders.
Speaker 2:um you know, it's.
Speaker 3:It isn't about the leader, um, the leader isn't always right and, and you know, demonstrating that's important. But the other word that begins with an h and a u and an m, which I also think is relevant here, is it's important not only to have humility but to demonstrate humanity, and I think that's an important characteristic for leaders too. And what I mean by that really is we're all people, we all have the pressures, the prejudices, the pressures, the prejudices, the preferences that we show as individuals. And I think, for me, being authentic means, you know, showing some of that to the team and demonstrating not only the sort of the humility of fallibility but the humanity of fallibility too, and also that you, you know, being relatable, and I think that's been an important piece.
Speaker 3:There are, there have been, people I've worked for and you know nothing about their private lives, their personal lives, you know nothing about they.
Speaker 3:They carry a veneer of a shell, an armor, if you like, uh, into battle with them and, um, you know, I I've always found that, sometimes, admitting to the old flesh, the odd flesh wound, uh, was, was a helpful, uh, you know, was a helpful and and human thing to recognize.
Speaker 3:We all carry, they're all, they're always things which are going on in people's hinterland that impact their performance, impact their focus, impact how they're feeling, and I think leaders who demonstrate that they, too, have those sorts of things to deal with over time build rapport, understanding, and also, a word that's often forgotten in business is loyalty, and you want people in a team who are prepared to run that extra mile, who are prepared to go the extra distance, who are prepared to really step up and be counted and, I think, a relationship building, the sense of uh, that that you, you and them are in it together, and how better to do that than on the basis of your shared humanity, as well as as well as all those other leadership characteristics we've talked about and I'm curious about that because it it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I was coaching a, a lady executive a while ago and she we. What the coaching session was about this topic was how vulnerable and human can I be without people seeing me as weak? And I think what what you've described is you've built a level of credibility before demonstrating that humanity or maybe that's what I've heard, but I so I wonder how would you respond to to that kind of I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sure, I mean I.
Speaker 3:I would hate it, I'd hate you, to infer that there's an element of performance art about this and I, and I don't think, because I don't think that's authentic. And I, and so you know, there have been situations when I've been very clear about, right from the get-go, about some of the things that are going on in my life, you know, family health issues or or whatever, um, children who were on day one of a of joining a team. Well, a because I thought it was relevant, and b, I needed to provide some excuses for why I wasn't going to be absolutely focused on day one on solving the problem. But I found that actually to be quite a good icebreaker as well, because you build the rapport from the get-go.
Speaker 3:Look, nobody wants a leader, neil, who wanders around with a wet tissue, crying their eyes about, saying woe is me.
Speaker 3:They want somebody they can look up to, they can trust, they can believe in, that they think is going to help them to navigate out of where they're at and take the business forward or take the organization forward or help address the problems they've got. So I'm not, you know, do I personally think, um, you know, showing humanity, and that does imply vulnerability, and I think it's a big mistake and I, you know, and I think it's, I think it's, you know, I'd go so far as to, I think it's an unattractive trait in people if they're, if they can't, um, if they, if they want to sort of hide behind everything, behind the war. We all have private lives and things we don't want to talk about. But I, as a leadership tool and actually as a way of managing yourself and not feeling always that you have to be the lead spear carrier with the biggest shield and the sternest look, I think that for me, it's always been, you know, an important feature of my leadership style.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, interesting. I think that's a massive development in leadership over the years, right when this whole belief about you have to be the loudest voice in the room, you have to be the one that speaks first, et cetera. It doesn't always go to plan, does it, ben? So I guess you've had some challenges at points in your career. Can you think of one of the toughest leadership decisions you've had to make?
Speaker 3:Oh, I've had, I mean, yes, many, many challenges. I think you're being polite, albert. I mean, I think, one of the ways in which I describe my portfolio of experiences, some of those experiences, they've all been interesting and rich experiences. Some of them have been you, you know, experiences for which people, metaphorically, or in one case, gave me a medal, uh, or that they, and in other cases, you know they've been deep failures. I mean there's no, no, and I and I use that word because some people don't like even to to use the word failure in their careers and they don't, and I think you know I it's, I'm not quite in the space of you're not trying at skiing unless you fall over lots. I mean, you know what to try and avoid, uh, you know falling over every, every job.
Speaker 3:You do but I do think there's something about I've, I've, I've and it comes back to impact I've, I've tended to gravitate in my career towards running towards difficult problems rather than away from them. I've made a habit of working in government being thrown hot potatoes that some folks thought were too difficult or didn't want to get involved with Fast moving, dynamic, very high profile situations that required. You know, there aren't many situations in life where the where, where the phrase it's it's a matter of life and death, applies. But and we use it too much in business and I and that's one of the things that keeps me grounded actually there are very few things I do now which are a matter of life and death, uh, but there have been, at points in my career, things which have, which have met that sort of criteria and I've. And there are lots of things where, as you go through your career, if you run, if you make a habit of running towards difficult problems, uh, trying to put teams together to address them, there will be times when you know you don't, you don't hit the target, uh, you miss the target, you, you don't hit the target, you miss the target, you don't have the impact you hoped. And there are two things I'd say about that, albert One is but isn't that a brilliant source of learning too? And aren't there things you can take away from that and think about, whether it's view through the prism of your own personal approach or behavior, what you could have done differently, or the way the problem was framed, or how you engage stakeholders and you know all of those good things. But it's also, you know, it's an opportunity to reset and recalibrate and say, okay, what should I do next? And I think that's occasionally provided me with the opportunity actually to step back a bit and think about, well, what skills would I need to gain to be better at that next time? Or if I had my time again, I'd be a bit reflective about that from a personal perspective as well as from a kind of professional perspective. So, yeah, there are.
Speaker 3:I think the flip side also follows that, even when you've been successful in a role or a job, recognising when the return on your investment of effort is when you're through the S-curve, recognising when actually you're not having the impact you want to make, not because you're failing, but because you've kind of you, you've achieved, you've got the thing back where it needs to be and it's flowing in the right direction and it or you know. Then there's there's a sort of people hang on because that's the job they're doing. Well, in my experience, sometimes it's it's helpful to say to yourself look, I've, I've, I've had the impact I wanted and it's, you know, somebody bet somebody else is better suited for the next phase. Or, as important, my own personal motivation or sense of sense of self is going to be better served by actually stepping out of something I've been successful in and looking for the next thing. So, so I think that preparedness to fail you know, I I do meet people who are desperately concerned not to fail yeah, and I think that's really limiting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I want people who want to work, who might, we might fail, but, but, but, bloody hell, if we make an impact, or if we make a difference, or if we, you know, if we, if we get this right, we won't. And and there's a sort of risk reward. Um, I don't mean that in a in a kind of uh, financial, I mean, yeah, bonus kind. I mean that in a kind of experiential and impact reward or risk. How do you?
Speaker 1:create, because enabling people to fail seems to be a great way of allowing an organization to grow. You know, reid Hoffman from LinkedIn used to measure all his leaders on failing 20% of the time and if they at their annual review, if they hadn't failed 20%, they got a poor rating in their research. So how, how do you, how do you create that environment, or how would you advise people to create that environment where it's okay to fail?
Speaker 3:I. I think it varies by person. Uh, neil, and I think you have to be in tune a bit with the person that you're talking to. I have had people who've embraced this philosophy rather over aggressively and I think that's a separate problem and gets dealt with in a different way. But, being less flippant, I think there are people for whom they've been conditioned, whatever reason through there probably goes back to childhood.
Speaker 3:I'm no Freudian psychologist but people get hung up on the notion of failure. I've had people that you know, simple things like I'd like a two by two every month. Simple things like I'd like a two-by-two every month, which tells me your strengths, successes, failures, opportunities and threats. You know what are soft charts, what charts? And the guy they had one guy it crossed out failures every time and put sort of disappointments or you know some euphemism for you know, and I had to sit and you get into it and it became a bit of a joke and I think humor I think you know humor can help. Um, yeah, I think you know I'm not saying we laugh at everything we fail at. That's not. That's not what I mean at all. Sometimes these things are deadly theories.
Speaker 3:But you've got to find a people's, a space where people can engage with, not with the failure itself, but with the learning opportunity or the what would we do differently? Or what do we need to do now that that's happened, to recover or improve the situation? And I think, if you can get beyond, you failed to. Okay, what do we do now? Or what did we learn, or how would we approach this differently? That's part of the trick and I think sometimes humor can be an effective media and I think I can be very punchy and very focused. I'll just call it in a business review with people, I'm not a great shouty and sweary and tell them all that, but I think it's important to hold people to account and be disciplined and apply rigor in those situations.
Speaker 3:But you've got to invite people into the conversation about well, what next? Where do we go from here? And if that requires them to acknowledge that where we are is not where we'd like to be, which implies that something didn't turn out how we expected, which implied that something else didn't happen, which ultimately gets us to we or there was a failure. If we don't want to, then I think that's helpful and I'm a great fan of the whys. You know why did that happen? Okay, because this? Well, why that and why do we think? Well, successive whys, I think, are really helpful in this context to help to dig down to ground truth and what really went on.
Speaker 1:I think there's a bit of an unhidden, unseen element as well that you probably can't see would be my view, because you do it all the time and because I think that there's a way of creating that um environment where it's okay to fail if you're confident in your position, if you've got the courage to stand up to your boss, if you're prepared to be that umbrella yeah, and I think that's that's a really important part that you know you didn't say it but just by listening to you can tell you do you do that, you're so confident in you that it's okay if someone fails because you make the space for it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you use the umbrella word and I have used that analogy with the team. Oftentimes your job as a leader is to provide the shelter for the team to operate. You know, in a dry hopefully dry and if not warm, at least not damp and there's a roof over their heads metaphorically, there's a shelter and providing them with the space and the time and the lack of interference to get on and do what needs to be done. And you know, in lots of organizations the job of the leader actually is to hold that umbrella up and to recognize that there will be stormy weather. You know rain will come, the wind will blow and it'll buffet the umbrella holder. And just occasionally I mean sometimes, the rain is brown and the umbrella goes brown because it's nasty stuff coming out of the sky that you know you have to hold out to prevent people from getting dirty as well as wet, and that's, you know, that's part of it Having the resilience I don't know if confidence is the right word, but I agree resilience, the determination, the resolution, the resolution, perhaps I mean the resolution and the resilience to say no, I'm going to hold this umbrella and it's going to help my team to do the work, to get through the storm and, uh, you know, if you've got the, if you can demonstrate that to the team, I think you do buy loyalty and you buy the recognition that we're in this together team.
Speaker 3:I think you do buy loyalty and you buy the recognition that we're in this together and it and by fronting mistakes and being able to say, okay, I'm going to take this because we, we decided to do this. It hasn't gone how we wanted and I'm gonna yeah, we decided we, we haven't got where we want to, but I'm gonna front it up and present it and take the and explain where we are.
Speaker 3:I think yeah you know, I have worked for bosses no names, they're packed real for whom the successes were theirs and the failures were ours.
Speaker 3:And I think we all have you know, and I think that we're you know, but but it's still a you know paradigm that I think we can all recognize and I think that's an important uh, you know, there's a know, there's a little parrot on your shoulder saying you know, you celebrate the team's success and you're accountable for things that don't go quite how you want, and the team's that. You can go a long way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's an important part of it. I think You're right. And the other is the bad news has to travel faster than the good. In time, you build a culture where people want to come and tell you no, look at what I've done, isn't it great? That's important and we want to celebrate success. We want to celebrate that new contract win or that program milestone or that new M&A deal that we were on the cusp of doing.
Speaker 3:Of course, those things are really important, but I'd much rather have a culture where we feel accountable and empowered to bring the bad news up for quickest so that we can get focused on and deal with it and nobody feels to blame. They feel part of. Well, that's how do we, how do we rally around and focus on how to fix it, and I think that's important. If you can build a sense that that's your expectation and people respond, then it's self reinforcing, as long as you don't turn around and throw the book out at them. And again I have seen that what I do and what I say have to be aligned and consistent if you're going to retain that trust and build that sense of togetherness in the team yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we we've covered a lot of ground here, but I'm really conscious that that ben's got a meeting coming up, right, so we need to get off. But I'm thinking, neil, did we want to give ben the opportunity if there's anything we haven't covered? Yeah, and you'd want to get across to the audience, right? So our listeners are experienced leaders, leaders looking to progress and aspiring leaders as well. Is there anything you'd want to get across that we haven't given you the chance in our questioning?
Speaker 3:I think it. No, I mean, I, I wouldn't presume chaps, you're the, uh, you're the. You are the detectives. After all, i'm'm just the witness. I wouldn't resist. I think one thing I would say, but I can't resist.
Speaker 3:I think one thing that, from a career perspective that I've and it relates to this point about being prepared to fail I think being prepared to take risks with our careers is really important. Yeah, and I think you know if I'm a, if I think back to, um, you know, earlier, earlier stages of my career, being prepared to, to step up and take on things that were challenging, that were difficult, that other people might not want to do. I have taken jobs with people. Why did you want, oh really, oh, crumbs, no, why do you want to do that? And I think that sense of being, because that's so stretching, you know you learn stuff by being operating in environments where you are the least informed person I've changed.
Speaker 3:I've worked in aerospace, I've worked in defense, I've worked in national security. I've worked in aerospace, I've worked in defense, worked in national security, I've worked in government, I've worked in big corporations, I've worked in consulting businesses, I've worked in space, communications, the maritime sector, private equity-backed companies. I've quite a varied career and each of those, for me, has been a sort of laboratory experiment. What can I learn? What was different? And each of those steps has had some risk attached. You know why didn't you go up within the one segment or one industry or one discipline. I've done strategy, bd, sales, p&l, project management, program management, government. Really I've done a lot of different things and I think taking risk is a good thing and is a good way of honing, sharpening the saw and opening up new opportunities, and I think careers these days are about opportunities and seizing them and running with them.
Speaker 3:So wow that seems to work for me so far, but who knows after this? Yeah, wow, that seems to work for me, so far, but who knows after this.
Speaker 1:Honestly, that's, that's great advice. To finish with that, all the growth is outside your comfort zone is basically what you just said, which is fantastic. So, ben, look, I just want to say a massive thank you for dedicating this time to helping the people who want to learn about leadership, dedicating this time to helping the people who want to learn about leadership and anyone listening to this. There are so many clues in that episode. I would listen to it a couple of times because you won't get it first time around. Listen to it a couple of times to pick up on all the clues from someone who I consider to be a great leader. So, ben, thank you for that and, albert, I'll let you wrap up yeah, no, totally agree, ben.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. I think, as you say, there's some great messages in there. So, guys, please do pick them up. Thank you for listening in guys. Any questions, any comments? You know you've got the opportunity to put them down. This will obviously go out over linkedin, please, uh, let us know if there's anything you want to hear different from ben and anything you want to expand on. But thank you very much for listening in guys. Talk to you again next time, thanks, thanks, neil. Okay, thank you for listening to the leadership detectives with neil thubron and albert joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectivescom for all the episodes and more resources and support.