Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
How to Cultivate Authentic Leadership in the Modern World?
Welcome to Episode 7 of The Leadership Detectives.
In this episode, we look back on some of our recent interviews in order to double down on some of the most salient points our guests have made.
We highlight the importance of authenticity and why it is becoming even more vital in the modern leadership world.
We also discuss why humility is crucial for a leader to inspire those around them, delving into why "being soft" is often much braver than the "old school" management styles we may have grown up with.
Find Neil online at: https://neilthubron.com
Find Albert on LinkedIn at: www.linkedin.com/in/albert-e-joseph
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives with Albert Joseph and Neil Fulham. This is the GoTo Podcast, uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
SPEAKER_00:Neil and I started this journey about a year ago now, and we decided to interview some guests to bring their experience and their insight to you as our audience. But what we've realized recently is how much we are learning about what makes a great leader in today's world. Previously, words like humility, authenticity, inclusivity, being human, bringing your whole self to work. These were words, some of which are being said, yes, sure. But now we are learning that these are the traits, the attributes, and the behaviors embodied by some of the best and most respected leaders that we have the privilege to talk to. So in the next 20 minutes, Neil and I discussed it in more detail. I hope that it adds some value for you. So enjoy. Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome back to the Leadership Detectives. Good to see everybody here. Neil and I have had a really busy week this week, but never too busy to talk to you. Neil, how are you?
SPEAKER_01:I'm fine, thanks. Yeah, I'm a little bit tired, to be honest, of being completely vulnerable and open about feeling, but I am always excited and energized to have a conversation about leadership and just try and help our audience with uncovering clues around great leadership. And what we thought we'd talk about this week is Albert and I were having talking a couple of weeks ago about the fact we are learning so much from our guests about the new styles of leadership, the new attributes of leadership, the new skills of leadership. And we realized that a lot of our knowledge and the conversations we're having on this podcast have come from our background and our history, where we grew up in management in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. And so we wanted to talk about some of the things we're learning as we go through this and kind of reflect on some of those and how it might apply. Before I'm just going to give you an example of the environment that Albert and I grew up in. So this these are quotes from a movie that was the most popular movie in the 80s. Lunches for Wimps. If you need a friend, get a dog. It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done. Do you know what film they were? Wolf of Wall Street. That's Wall Street. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Michael Douglas. And Michael Douglas. And the 90s. It was absolutely like that. I remember I was at the time working with a large bank in London, and the mentality in there was even worse than the company I was working for. It was absolutely about macho, ego, being tough, not being flexible, right? My way or the highway. You're absolutely right, Neil. Absolutely right.
SPEAKER_01:And so the words that have come up recently, and we're going to talk about in the next 20 minutes, is authentic, humility, vulnerability, being human, being inclusive, emotional intelligence. These are all words we've heard a lot of in the last couple of weeks. And I guess we're just going to dig into it a little bit more to see what we learned and what do we think about it. So let's start with authentic. What's your thoughts on what we've heard around authenticity and leadership?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've had a number of guests that have touched into these areas, guys. Not that we've led any of them. They've all come up with very similar language and feedback, right? So I think the things we picked up about being authentic is about being yourself, right? And being open and honest about what you feel when you're talking with your teams and not having a cloak, right? Not having a uniform or a guard that you create. That's what I got the feeling from talking right across a number of our guests here that have come to us.
SPEAKER_01:And how would you feel about being an authentic leader?
SPEAKER_00:We can joke about what it was like during those times, but I think, and this is not about you and me, but I don't think we were ever that guarded. I think there were people a lot worse than us. There were probably people better than us, right? I don't feel that bad. And I certainly don't, I feel less worried about it now than I think I did in those days, right? So being authentic now, I don't feel that that's a weakness. I don't feel that that's a downside. I feel like I'm sharing and engaging with my team. I just don't feel it's a weakness, but I may have done before.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think that you need a level of experience, of gravitas, of confidence in your own leadership ability before you can be authentic?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I think you do because I think you need to know the contrast to that, right? So when you're putting it on the back of, I didn't used to be as authentic as I am now, gives me something to compare to, but it also gives me to compare the results I get from being so.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think I think it's, and this is why I wanted to have this conversation. I think it's easy for you and me, sitting here in our 50s with 30 years of leadership experience under our belt, coaching hundreds of leaders, et cetera, to say we can be authentic. Because we can, because we're confident in our ability to lead. Yeah. But for a new leader, I wonder how easy it is for them to be authentic without feeling like they're exposing weaknesses in themselves.
SPEAKER_00:There's a really good example, right? So the last guest that we spoke to, Jay Trestane, right? Jay's a fairly young lady compared to you and me, right? And I think the way that she described it is she didn't know any other way. She only knew the way to do it this way, to be, you know, the her herself, to bring her whole self to work and to do it in that way. And it's worked for her. So there's a good example of someone who's done it. But I can see what you're saying. There is a danger that somebody thinks when I become a leader, I need to behave this way. Because examples have been set for them, is that you you need to flick this switch and you become a leader, and you suddenly need to become this very different person.
SPEAKER_01:And it's interesting. I mean, I've been coaching a few people this week, and they're, you know, I've been asking them about how they're feeling, and there's still a nervousness around job security. Yep. So if you're feeling slightly insecure in your job, being authentic or bringing your full self to work, is that okay? Or does that leave you uh exposed to other people who might be not applying authenticity to attack you or to get rid of you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but you and I just mentioned this in our preparation to come to this this this podcast, right? It's about bravery and courage. You you have to decide that I don't really mind, or I don't care too much about how I'm going to be judged. If it's the right thing to do, it's the right thing to do. Because what's more important? Is it about you or is it about your team? What's more important? What a leader.
SPEAKER_01:I guess a leader could argue it's about my you know, providing for my family and making sure I've got money coming in.
SPEAKER_00:And so is it about longevity or is it about me being successful now? Get myself on my next promotion, get myself up the ladder. Is that more important? Or is it about having a team that is successful, engaged, open? You know, you're setting the example, by the way. If you're telling them to be open and vulnerable and human, you're asking them to do that as well. And as a team, I think what we've learned, again, it's not what you and I wake up in the morning and think, it's what we've learned from other leaders is that that creates the right environment to have the most successful, but also harmonized team. The question is before did anyone care about having a harmonized team or did they care about just delivering the results? Courage is a really important word.
SPEAKER_01:So you have to have the courage. Let's say you're a first line and your second line is autocratic, bullion style leader, but you want to lead in an authentic, human, vulnerable style. You've almost got to have two personalities, surely. You've got to have the personality in the way you manage and lead your team, and then you've got to change your style when you lead upwards to the autocratic bully.
SPEAKER_00:Or do you? Or do you? I don't know. Or do you, right? What's to say that you couldn't change the environment around you as well? Don't I'm not, I'm not this sounds very bold, but but change has to start somewhere, right? Who says change doesn't start with you? Who says there's not inklings in that in other people, but they don't know how to surface it or they don't feel comfortable surfacing it until you do. And then they go, Oh, okay, I might have an ally here.
SPEAKER_01:And I think it it was interesting, you know, when we were talking to Clive Clyde Fernandez, he was challenged on being too soft with this style, but he just said, Look at my results. Yep, look at what I'm delivering. And actually, I think that's probably so so to be able to change the environment around you, you've got to prove that the environment you want to change it to is better. So, therefore, you've got to make sure your team, whatever you're doing, is performing as the the best it can possibly perform using that style.
SPEAKER_00:So, so so let's let's pick some other words then, Neil. So we so we went with authenticity there. Let's let's let's talk about humility and bringing your whole self to work. Now, there's a great example, right? Because in the days gone by, you may have been a very guarded individual. And it's what you just said there. Do you have to be a different person in a different place? What's your thoughts around that, around the humility and the bringing your whole self to work?
SPEAKER_01:That's really interesting, right? Because that means that you have to take ownership when things go wrong. You know, being humble says, I don't know everything, and I may make mistakes or I may need help from people around me. And again, that's that's an interesting mindset paradigm shift for a lot of leaders, yeah. And and personally, I get it could to be honest, because you know, I was always right, so I didn't need to worry about it, you know.
SPEAKER_00:But there's a good example, right? There's a good example, and this is not a new phrase, that a good leader makes sure that the people that work for them are smarter than them. That that's an old phrase, and it's still as relevant now. That's humility, that's humility.
SPEAKER_01:So, how do you enable your people to be smarter than you, to be exposed to more to more senior projects or more senior conversations than you, and still feel safe that you're the person who's adding value in here because you you might not be the face of your team anymore, because you're allowing your team to be the face of your team.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I think it's our role then as a leader to give them air cover, to have their back, right? All those phrases, right? They need to know that if they're going to go into something and it doesn't work out the way that it may have done. That's about it's not failure, it's about learning, but they need to know that you've got their back, not that you will come down on them or you will stand aside while your boss beats them up, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And I think that so you're leading from behind with a supporting arm rather than standing in front saying, this is how great my team is and how great they are. Yeah. And when things go wrong, you step in front and go, that was my fault.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Come back to the podcast we did a while ago around you know, extreme ownership.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:You take responsibility, but when it goes really well, be willing to share that glory with the team as well.
SPEAKER_01:It comes back to courage, actually. Uh, you know, because you've got to have courage to do that in front of uh a boss that has been brought in by a PE firm, you know, put private equity firm to get as much revenue out of the business before they do an IPO or an equity event. You've got to have some real courage to say, you know, the standing behind my team is the best way of making this happen. So you've got to really believe in your convictions.
SPEAKER_00:But there's another piece to that as well, right? Which I think is around confidence and self-esteem, is that you don't need these little wins to make you feel significant. You don't need them on your chart, you need them on the chart of your team. So you're not looking for opportunities to also always say, I made that, I did the right thing there. Look at me, look at me. You're right. So you need that confidence and self-esteem and a good trusting relationship with your team.
SPEAKER_01:And and the other thing that comes to mind is, and you you kind of said you've got to have the courage to be the person, the leader you want to be. If this is the leadership style you want to adopt, authenticity, humility, etc. If you're in an organization that doesn't match that, then actually you've got to have courage to go and find an organization that does match your standards and values and how you want to lead and how you want to be led, yeah. As well, which is an easy thing to say sitting here on a podcast and a difficult thing to do. But I guess until you are allowed to lead in the way you want to lead, you're never going to be happy and enjoying your job.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I agree. I think there's another thing that I'd bring in here as well. And I'd go back to our guest Gene when we spoke to Gene McCaskell, right? And I remember one of the things Gene said that you and I giggled with at the time, where she said, give your ego the day off. Maybe you need to give your ego a long holiday. Maybe you need to send your ego home. Because pride in your team doesn't have to be ego. And I think that's something we need to think about. So, what's Neil and I talking about here, what's different these days to be a great leader compared to before? That for me is a huge one, right? Ego doesn't really have a part to play in being a great leader. Personal view.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I think it's a it's a key point. I think there is an element of how do you use your ego, because we all have it, and there's not then it's not always a bad thing. But actually, that leads us on to one of the other words that keeps coming up is around vulnerability. So, how can you be vulnerable if you if your ego is leading you? Because you can't show vulnerability, as Jay Trestain talked about in her podcast, about being able to tell her team about difficult personal circumstances in her life. She had to show her vulnerability and it built a stronger team and it improved her leadership of that team by being vulnerable, which again is something quite strange to me because I'm not sure. I'm sure I could now. I think I feel if I was leading a team now, I'd feel pretty comfortable being vulnerable. Looking back, I'm not sure how comfortable I felt at that in my late 20s, early 30s.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because I think we were expected to have a persona. Sorry, we believed we were expected to have a persona. Maybe, maybe we weren't expected to, but we believed, I believed, I can't speak for you, Neil. I believed I needed to have a certain persona being the leader, right? That's what I believed. And where did I get that belief from? From the way that people around me behaved. That's where I got it from. Well, and also the management training we went through, too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, there was a certain way that you were expected to behave and a certain uniform you were supposed to wear. Yeah. And I think that's probably changing now.
SPEAKER_00:And does that mean all this stuff we're talking about here? Does that mean we're saying everybody needs to get soft now? Is that what we're saying?
SPEAKER_01:Well, and and I've heard that term a number of times. Is is it's about being a bit soft, a bit touchy-feely. And look, we've got a business to run. We can't have all this spend all this time with these people doing this stuff and being more vulnerable. And you know, I I hear that in some of the leaders that I work with, you know, yeah, that's all well, but I've got a business to run. I I guess, as we said early on in this podcast, you've got to prove that by getting the team working better, by engaging the team better, by getting the most out of them, by have by having a low attrition rate, so you're not losing people, that you are delivering better business results for the board, for the directors, or by the shareholders.
SPEAKER_00:I agree. And I and I think you you've got to you've got to get comfortable with it yourself, right? If you think that what we're talking about here means you become soft. And I actually don't get that word. I don't get it anymore. I may have done before, but I don't get it anymore. It's about a different style of leadership that is applicable in this day and age for the people that you're leading. I mean, we've talked to millennials, right? Some of the things those millennials said to us, we giggled because we couldn't believe they'd said it, right? But that's their belief, right? What did what did um what did Rebecca say? My manager needs to understand my expectations of them. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Actually, it just thought popped to mind. Cowards are soft. That's a good point. People who are courageous and step outside the norm. A coward is the person who sits behind the management system and sits behind blaming their team and sits behind the numbers and and and the process. A courageous person is the person who's authentic and human. So it's not soft actually at all, yeah. In in that respect. So I guess one final word, because I uh uh before we we wrap up, that come has come up quite a lot is about inclusivity. So I just want do you want to just say a couple of words on that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Look, again, I think I think we're not saying that people in days gone by have never been inclusive. They might just not have had enough categories that they've included in that inclusiveness. There might have been categories that they felt weren't deserving. In our view, everybody's eligible to be included in that. Everybody. It doesn't matter what their disposition is, their background is, their even their capability. Somebody has the right to be included even if they're not as capable, because we've got a responsibility to make them more capable or to put them into a job where they are best suited. So inclusivity to me has to have no bounds. I think it has to have no bounds.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you almost have to be active to include different types of people, whether it's different genders, different ethnic backgrounds, different sexual orientation, whatever it is, you have to have that. And I think Clyde said it brilliantly in the interview we did with him, where he said diversity is a fact, inclusivity is a choice. Yeah. But there's a bit a step further than that, which is go and seek it, because you're missing out on some of the skills those people can bring if you don't have that inclusivity. And I see that, you know, in again when I'm when I'm coaching and working with teams that don't have many women, for example. Yeah, the women leaders actually bring a lot more of this emotional intelligence and it being more human. And and guess what? Their results tend to be better, but there are fewer of them in some of the business industries I I work with. So I'm I I guess we we should wrap up there. Yeah, we should. It feels like we've kind of just touching on this surface and we're we're on a big learning journey ourselves at the moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and we're and we've got more. So, as you said, a lot of this has come from, or just about all of it has come from the guests that we've that we've interviewed, right? And and those guests have come about one way or another, but it's great that they've all got similar messages um all the way through. And we've got more coming down the line, right? We've got another guest coming up soon where we're going to talk about another element of this which we haven't even touched on yet, right? So that's gonna be great for us to carry on doing that and bring it to you. But yeah, look, we're learning, Neil. I mean, we're learning all the time, right?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, and I'm loving it. I'm absolutely loving learning and hopefully helping our leaders out there to grow and develop as well as they're listening to some of the and picking up little snippets from this and maybe the little marginal gains that make the difference for them or their teams.
SPEAKER_00:If there's if there's anything fundamental that we haven't touched on yet, and we haven't done a lot, we've done what we can in this short time. There's anything fundamental you think we're missing or should be a topic of discussion around that. Please drop it into the comments, guys, because that might be a good discussion for us in future days, talking about leadership in the new world and managing, you know, the workforce of today.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, brilliant. So thank you for listening to us today. Thanks for dialing in. Uh, hopefully you found that useful. Please leave us your comments, please subscribe. Uh, please let us know other topics you'd like to hear about, and we'd like your opinions on what we've talked about too. So please share that as well.
SPEAKER_00:I'll leave it with you to say goodbye, Albert. Fantastic, guys. Thanks very much for the time. Great to spend the time with you here in the UK. It's a bank holiday this weekend. So we've got a longer weekend to enjoy. I hope you've enjoyed listening to this podcast and there's more coming your way. Take care. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thubbron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit Leadership Detectives.com for all the episodes and more resources and support.