Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
How to Be Calm Under Pressure: Leadership Lessons From a Bomb Disposal Expert with Chris Hunter QGM
In this episode, we’re joined by Chris Hunter QGM, author, bomb disposal expert, and former British Army officer.
And when it comes to topics like fear of failure there are few better placed than Chris who has had to view failure as meaning someone losing their life.
We start by talking about why Chris joined the Military and the words that his father gave him on his death bed that shaped his life. Looking at leadership, we break down lessons he learned in the Military such as knowing what your boss is trying to achieve and having the ability to influence the greater good. Chris gives us invaluable insight on a great example of leadership that he’s had when advising on the 7/7 London bombings and on dealing with the fear of failure.
Connect with Chris Hunter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-hunter-qgm-b474ab6a/
Find Neil online at: https://neilthubron.com/
And Albert on LinkedIn at: www.linkedin.com/in/albert-e-joseph
Welcome to the leadership with Little. This is the go-to book comment and we include great leadership. If you are a leader today or an exploring leader, this book comes is a mistake for you.
SPEAKER_01:Hey human, everyone. Welcome back to the Leadership Detectives. Ready for another episode of us giving you some good clues to great leadership. Busy week for us, and we've got a lot of stuff going on, but really good to be able to spend the time here. And I'm really excited about where what we're back to do next. But I'm gonna let Neil tell you more about that.
SPEAKER_02:Neil, how are you? I'm fabulous, thanks, mate. And yeah, just we are busy at the moment, and it's great to be doing so many of these leadership podcasts at the moment. But I'm especially pleased about today's podcast, which I'll share with you why in a minute. But it's great to welcome Chris Hunter onto the uh the podcast. Chris, how are you doing? Very good, thanks, yeah. Thanks very much for having me on. Great to have you.
SPEAKER_00:And what part of the world are you in, just so people know where you are? I'm in Herefordshire, a little town called Hayomai, and uh yeah, just returned from Libya, so it's nice to be home.
SPEAKER_02:And I spoke to Chris last week when he was in Libya, and and let me just introduce Chris. So, Chris is also the first person we've ever had on this podcast who's got a Wikipedia page. We are moving up in the market. So I thought I'd just go on there and just have a look at what it says about Chris on the Wikipedia page. It says, Chris joined the British Army. Actually, it says Hunter, but I've put Chris in. Chris joined the British Army in 1989 as a 16-year-old army apprentice. He entrained initially as a Russian linguist working in defense intelligence, and after four years enlisted service, he was selected to undergo officer training at Sandhurst. He graduated at 21 and was awarded the Karma Sword of Honor. He was then commissioned to the Royal Logistics Corps. That route would eventually lead to becoming an ATO or ammunition technical officer in the Bomb Disposal Unit of the British Army. Served as a troop commander in the Aucklands, East Africa, Northern Ireland, and undertook Arctic warfare training in Norway, becoming an EOD operator. As an operator, two tours of Northern Ireland, Iraq, and there's loads of other stuff in here as well about Chris protecting the royal family, working with the special forces, working with governments all over the world, and most impressively, as well, got awarded the Queen's Gallantry Medal, which is not given out to many people. Personally, I'm really excited to have Chris here because, for those that know, I was in the Army Reserve and EOD as well, in the Royal Engineer part of the uh British Army, although I never went to some of the places Chris went to. Chris, it's fab to have you here. And wow, uh, what a CV. Thank you very much, Neil.
SPEAKER_01:If I wasn't feeling insignificant before, I can tell you I probably am now. But um, I'm sure it's not all roses, Chris. I'm sure we've got some uh there's something that comes with all of those things you've achieved in in life, and I guess we'll hear about them here.
SPEAKER_02:So that's the first question, Albert.
SPEAKER_01:Well, well, that was that was your introduction, right? So it'd be interesting to hear Chris's introduction. So, Chris, um imagine that you're and well, you'd have to imagine it because it happens all the time. You're being introduced on stage, but you can choose who's going to introduce you on stage this time. Who would that be that does that introduction? And what would they say about you?
SPEAKER_00:I'd have to think about who it's gonna be, but if I'm completely honest with you, I think they'd probably say something along the lines of, you know, he's Forrest gumped his way through his life and his career, and uh, I've got no idea how he got here. So yeah, for me, it's very kind of anything you've said there, but uh it still sounds surreal hearing it, you know. I feel like I'm a normal bloke who's had a pretty normal life, or maybe a slightly unusual life. That's about it, though. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Did you that's interesting? I'll just kind of kind of go off script a minute after you, but that's an interesting comment to make. So, did you plan that journey or did you stumble into that journey?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I did a bit of both. I mean, definitely I planned to join the uh the military, and my dad died when I was quite young. I'd gone off the rails. I was about 14 or 15, yeah. And um gone off the rails. And when he was on his deathbed, we had this conversation, and uh he said, What are you gonna do? And I said, Well, I think I'm gonna join the army, Dad, you know. And he said, Well, uh, I take it you're gonna be an officer. And um, I was like, Oh dear, you know, no pressure. And uh I said, Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And he said, Take my advice, he gave me a lifeline. He said, Go and get a trade first and uh spend some time as an enlisted soldier, because if your leadership ability isn't identified anyway, then you'd make a you know a pretty, pretty shoddy officer anyway. So he threw me a bit of a lifeline and uh and I thought I better go and get a trade. So that's why I got into the Royal Signals to start with as a Russian linguist. But I was the worst Russian linguist in the entire history of military intelligence, which is why I went to then Sandhurst and stumbled into bomb disposal. So yeah, it was a bit of each, really. Yeah, I meant to join the military, but the rest of it was was you know very much. So you so you stumbled into bomb disposal then. That was uh Yeah, I mean, I basically is it. I'd um I I'd sort of considered it. I mean, like most young soldiers and army officers, you know, I'd had this fantasy about joining the special forces at some point and I thought of going down the infantry line. You know, I saw a demo when I was at Sandhurst, and that kind of you know planted the seed. And then when I was in Northern Ireland a couple of years later, actually working with uh with the Royal Engineers as it happened, right? I saw uh a couple of car bombs at the headquarters in Northern Ireland, and you know, it was quite horrendous, obviously. And I know this is gonna be very upbeat, so I won't sort of dwell on that, but I saw the guys doing their, you know, the the ETOs that you mentioned, yeah, and clearing all the uh the cars because after two cars that exploded there, they thought there might be a third. And um, I was so impressed with these guys, and then I met them in the bar a few weeks later um and uh and just sort of gelled with them. So it was kind of you know, that was my calling, I guess. Got it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, all right. But but but in that, Chris, I mean, did did you did you always know you wanted to lead in this environment, or were you just keen to be a practitioner in this environment? What what was the m bigger motivation?
SPEAKER_00:I think I it was definitely both. I wanted to be a soldier for sure. Yeah, um, you know, I joined the Army Cadets when I was 14 and uh you know got promoted within the cadets quite quickly. When I joined as an army apprentice, I got promoted as a you know a young junior soldier quite quickly and and sort of went through that rank structure and was identified you know as having officer potential, I guess. And I enjoyed leading as well, you know. I think as we all know, and anybody that's watching this, you know, when they say leaders are born, not made, I think you definitely have something that makes you a leader or or makes you predisposed towards leadership. And obviously, you know, that's nurtured, developed, trained, yada yada yah.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I I don't know how long you've known Neil, but but there's actually a story of how Neil's leadership began, which I think was in his shed in the garden when he was about 12. But if he hasn't told you it, he'll tell you at some other time. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um it's on one of the podcasts for anyone who's interested. It is on another podcast if you want to tell you. It's not about me. So, Chris, with the with the um, you know, with the vast experience you've had over the last, well, I guess if we go back tonight's 30 years of experience of leadership, and this podcast is all about uncovering clues of great leadership. What would you say are some of the key elements of leadership that you've seen or learnt over the last 30 years?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I think courage is very important. And when I talk about courage, I mean moral and physical courage, you know, the ability to do what's right to overcome you know your own sort of personal um fears, especially. Courage isn't about being you know fearless, it's about uh knowing and identifying fear, being scared and doing it anyway. And I think that's really, really important. I think knowledge is really important, and certainly the you know, the continual pursuit of knowledge and learning. I think people always talk about honesty and integrity. Of course, that's important. You know, you've got to be able to trust those people that are in charge and that are leading you. And you know, even if that person isn't necessarily you know a naturally charismatic leader, you need to know what makes them tick. You need to know where you stand with them, don't you? I think that's really, really important too. Uh in my own experience, I think decisiveness is really important. Um, you know, it's very, very difficult when you're especially when the pressure's on and you've got to make a decision. You can't get all the information, or your competitors are uh, you know, also in that observation, you know, the oodaloop, the decision-action cycle. You've got to make a decision quickly. I think that's really, really important. Uh emotional intelligence, I think that's really, really important nowadays. You've got to be able to understand people. Yeah, um, you know, it's not just about barking orders, judgment, humility, and uh communication, definitely. Communication to me is really, really important. And I think it's the one thing I've seen continually through through my time as a you know, as a soldier, as a leader, as someone working with industry as well. Um, those organizations where communication is is you know effective and clear and concise, they tend to do quite well. Where it's bad, they tend to uh you know have some sort of breakdown, I think. And I could talk about communication forever, to be honest with you. I think that's probably the most important of all of them, actually.
SPEAKER_02:It's an interesting way, yeah, because it comes up regularly in these conversations, whichever leader we're talking to or person we're talking to. But how do you do that? How do you communicate well and in the environment you've been in? Yeah, what what do the good communicators do and what do the bad communicators do?
SPEAKER_00:I'll give you an example from everyday life. Okay, I think when we go on holiday, when we're uh you know, when we're on the concourse at Paddington station, whatever station, and the trains are delayed, the planes are delayed, and nobody likes being delayed, nobody likes the unknown, but people actually are prepared to tolerate it. But when you don't get any information, that's when people start to get annoyed and start to get knocked, and that's when there's a breakdown. Right. And I think you know, it's those sort of times that it's really, really important. And I think as well, you know, we can get really tied up in the moment, um, especially when we're a leader and when we're in a busy, you know, operational, fluid environments where decisions have got to be made. But sometimes I think you just got to take that check pace, take a breath, have a pause, reflect, and just communicate where you are, and maybe even what your intentions are gonna be. And just trickle feeding that information, I think, is often enough for people to uh and they feel valued as well, I think, when you do that. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think it's expected, right? And and I think that's what some leaders don't get is their their teams expect them to keep them up to date with what's going on, where they fit in the equation, and so on. So some great stuff that you've called out there, Chris, right? And courage has always been one that we've had listed on here. Neil, you've got something on your courage, I think, as well, because there's a couple of questions I want to drill into there.
SPEAKER_02:But actually, on communication and the military, I think one of the things I find in business that that that is different to the military, you know, when you go through Sanders, you learn about an orders process, don't you? You learn about having an O group and then passing the information down and then passing the information down. And it's one of the things I see in in business that it doesn't work. You know, someone will go to a board meeting, gather all this information at the board meeting, and then they go off and get on with their day. They don't think about how they're going to communicate downwards. Do you think that's um do you think do you do you see that happening in your I mean the world you're in now, but also in the world that level of communication all the way down, was that a secret to good communication?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think you know, certainly the world we live in now, you know, with uh electronic communication, it's actually a bit easier to pass on information. And the onus can often be on you know, the other employees to actually go and have a look and extract the relevant information from that vast amount of information you you refer to there. Interesting, when you talk about that that military orders process and and the what they call the combat estimate process, I think one of the uh really good sort of components of military success is based on that process. And it's the idea that you know what your your boss is trying to achieve and what your part is within his plan, but you also know what his boss in the next level above is trying to achieve and your part within that plan too. And the idea is that you know when a plan goes belly up, as it so often does, if you don't have the necessary resources or the necessary information, at least if you know what your boss is trying to achieve and his boss is trying to achieve, then you can at least do something to influence that for the greater good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and we we we did a session recently on vision and uh and and or vision stroke, mission stroke direction. And yeah, they they brought that into to the military orders in the 90s was the commander's intent. It wasn't there when I did Sandhurst, actually, it was just coming in. Uh, but that commander's intent was really important so that people knew that if, yeah, if their part of the mission didn't go right, they they knew how they might be able to adapt to achieve the commander's intent.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I was watching some of your videos on online, Chris. You've got a lot of stuff up there on YouTube, and if anybody wants to go and watch it, it's very worthwhile to listen to some of the messages Chris has got up there. But one of the things you talked up there about, Chris, is that what's different between what you did and what industry does is you've had the time always to prepare. You've trained for months and months and months, you've got yourself ready, you're good to go, and it's different in industry, they don't always get that chance. So you've got some good examples. And if you combine that with what you've just told us about what you think are good attributes of leadership, have you got some examples of great leadership that you've seen over the years that you've been doing what you've been doing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I think you know, many of the uh the conflicts that we've been involved in, you know, the Gulf War I, the it's it's difficult when you talk about war and conflicts to talk about it, you know, um as a success or a failure, it usually results in people's lives being lost, and therefore it's obviously a failure in that respect. Um but if you look at it purely from a military um objective, um you know, going into uh Iraq in the first Gulf War, going into Iraq in the second Gulf War, they made a uh a plan, and uh that plan was basically enacted and they effectively defeated Saddam's forces in both environments both times round. Those were successful um military operations, if you like. The leadership was sound, all of those qualities that I talked about were uh were implemented, if you like, um and it worked. The Iranian embassy siege back in the uh the 80s, you know, the first time British special forces certainly had uh been involved in such a well, they opened themselves up to the entire world, you know. That planning, the plan was put into place. First of all, they looked at the intelligence picture, they looked at the uh the threats, they looked at all of the factors and deductures that might influence their uh their plan. They came up with three options. They were well trained, way, way, way before the Iranian embassy siege actually took place, and then they built a full-scale replica of some of the rooms, you know, and certainly a decent replica model of it, and they practiced and trained and trained and trained and rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed. So I think that that idea when I talked about knowledge and I talk about practice and training, it does annoy me actually when I hear other speakers from the military banging on about how the military does everything better than industry, and industry can learn so much through the military. It makes me cringe and uh I find it very insulting. But they do have a point. But I think you know what you what you alluded alluded to there, but the the point is industry doesn't always have the opportunity to train somebody up for a minimum of six months before some sort of tasking, but then continually um mentor and uh and you know re-evaluate right the way through the process of the execution of that task, and then effectively have a six-month lessons learned process after the task is complete. But one industry does have is the ability to, you know, it's got experiential learning. So I think you can certainly capture the lessons learned and you can certainly pass those lessons on to other people and have somebody responsible in an organization for uh you know identifying and and communicating those lessons to other people. So it is possible to agree.
SPEAKER_02:But I think there is a I think there's an interesting point here. I would be less sympathetic with business than you're being, actually. I I think there, I think leaders in business need to make space for rehearsal, for practicing and and role playing. You know, in the sales environment, one of the you know, one of the things we focus on the sales environment is role play, is rehearsing, but then not enough times made for it. Leaders don't make enough space, they're just too too busy trying to, and and what happens when you're too busy trying to chase things is their mistakes are made. Yeah, and uh and the wash-ups really key as well. We've heard this from a number of people is that learning experience, again, in business, they don't make enough time for it. And I think there's lessons there for leaders from what you've just said to you know make time for rehearsal and role play and make time for uh wash-ups and learning reviews.
SPEAKER_01:I think I think the difference is here is Chris is saying you have to do it in where he is, and we don't have to do it in industry, and they avoid doing it. So it's a great lesson, guys. Just think about how much more effective you could be if you applied the lessons that we just picked up there. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm gonna come back to Albert's question, Vic. I'm not gonna let you off the hook on that one because I wanted to uh there was a question, there was a question. The question he asked was examples of great leadership. You gave some great macro examples of Schwarzkopf and and but what about you know really real examples that you and it doesn't you don't have to give us the exact scenario, I'm more interested in how they were leading you. What was a great example of leadership that you've experienced, or when you thought, actually, I just did a really good job as a leader there.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm certainly not going to talk about how I was a great leader. I'll leave you to do that. Um, I always it always makes me think of the phrase, you know, when you're good, you tell other people, when you're great, other people tell you. Um but uh I guess the the 7-7 bombings actually, I was I was heavily involved um in the response to the uh the 7-7 bombings.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um I spent most of my career, as I as I said to you, I started off with intelligence, training as a Russian linguist. Um, I was useless at it, and then went into the bomb disposal trade for most of my trade, um, spent some time with the special forces, but finished up working in intelligence, um, interestingly. And I was across the road from Downing Street in the old War Office building, which was the the head of uh um defense intelligence. Yeah, I was the lead for worldwide improvised explosive device intelligence. So I had a small team, a multinational team, and we would look at all of the terrorists use of improvised explosive devices around the world and travel out to certain places, debrief them, and we became you know pretty experts at what we were doing. And I'd also helped the uh the Met police and the other police forces when I was in the army to devise the procedures for dealing with a suicide bomber. Should we ever have that when we uh you know in the UK? When 7-7 kicked off, I was with my team just down by Embankment Tube Station. We used to go and have a coffee down there every whatever day of the week it was, and I remember all our phones had gone off, we couldn't access the phones, and then everyone was sort of rushing around doing the same thing, you know, trying to get their phones to work. So we went back to the office thinking something was wrong, and then of course, you know, we got the information from Sky News as any decent intelligence organization does. And I was told to go over to Cobra, you're gonna be uh um our subject matter expert on uh on suicide terrorism. And it was fascinating going in there actually, because uh there's a guy called Colonel Richard Kemp, who I'd worked with in the army. When I walked in there, actually, I was expecting Cobra to be this, you know, like something off a uh a movie set, you know, like the Situations Room at the uh that you see at the White House.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Basically, it's a room with a big long table, and uh all the members of the emergency cabinet sit around it, and then there's a corridor, and across the corridor, another tiny little room with six people in it. And when the prime minister or whoever asks a question, whichever minister doesn't know the answer, he then sends a quick message across to the person across the corridor. They then basically uh give the answer, then he comes back sounding all informed. Um, but we had one of the uh uh the G8, G10, whatever it was, um summits going on at the time. So a lot of stand-ins were basically taking responsibility and taking actions. And this guy, Colonel Kemp, I walked in there, I'd worked with him before, and this office of six suddenly became an office of about 20 people. There was MI5, there was MI6, there was police in there, very frenetic, you know, nobody knew what was going on. And the first thing he said was, ah, Chris Hunter, I thought you'd be dead or in prison by now. And you know, there was a few expletives thrown it as well, but I won't use those now. And then um, as the uh the day unfolded, um, I remember sitting around a table and there was senior people from MI5, MI6. The way it worked, you'd go into the COBA room, all of the intelligence guys would sit around and have the conversation, you'd come out, and then all the ministers would come in and they'd basically have their conversation. And we were all there about 45, 50 minutes into it. Three of the suicide bombings had uh had had happened at the same time, and then the fourth one had just occurred. And there's all these very, very informed senior people from the intelligence establishment, and then there was me, you know, basically nobody knew who I was. And uh I said, I think this is al-Qaeda, and literally, you know, I could have just thrown a hand grenade in the room or something. And I remember this lady from one of the intelligence agencies saying, Sorry, who are you and what qualifies you to come out with something so ridiculous? And I gave the reasons why. And then Colonel Kemp said, By the way, this is Chris Hunter, he's done XYZ, he's done the procedures with the police, he's our expert, and basically sort of put her back in her box, right? And then for the rest of the time, he just got everybody in there to work together. You know, we would write a uh an assessment for the prime minister, and then the decisions would be made basically and come down from him, and everybody had a chance to contribute to that. So he would say, What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And people had different opinions, but he would put them all in there, you know, as decision points and conversation pieces, and then everything would go. So he brought everybody together in that environment, and basically, you know, nobody knew each other, nobody knew what was happening, all our loved ones were in London or you know, you know, somewhere where we worried about them, we didn't know where they were in some cases, and just basically calmed down the entire environment and brought out the best in all of us, actually. Which uh, yeah, so on a personal level, that was probably um one of the most remarkable experiences.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's a really interesting example, Chris, because some of us have all got our own paradigms of what it's like in the military, right? And one of the phrases that Neil and I see in leadership is a smart leader makes sure he recruits people who are smarter than him or her, right? But in is that is that true then? For what you've just described there, that sounds like it's true for that situation. But my paradigm is that the leader in the military is the smarter person. Am I lost in there somewhere?
SPEAKER_00:I think sometimes it's a bit of both, Albert, to be honest with you. I think you know, there are many organizations where the leader quite often is surrounded by very, very smart people. I would say our government, you know, there's a lot of very, very smart people. Prime Minister's clearly a smart person, but so uh the advisors and ministers as well. When you're in the military, it depends on what unit you're in, uh, you know, at any any given time, I suppose. But I think if I was to sort of, you know, uh encapsulate or or define what I think military leadership's all about, uh I think it's probably the the ability to uh inspire others to achieve uh the otherwise unachievable in in any given situation. That doesn't mean they wouldn't achieve something, but I think a military leader inspires them to achieve the optimum results, and that can be with a group of smart guys, um, it could be with a group of uh you know not so smart guys or capable, not so capable, whatever that might be. But I think you know, a military leader, they're more than just a manager, certainly. You know, and we we all hear that term management and leadership all the time, don't we? Yeah, but I think maybe the one thing that sort of you know is very unique to the military environment, you've got to basically get people, as Montgomery said, you know, to do people, do that which they wouldn't ordinarily do. So achieve what they wouldn't ordinarily achieve, I would say.
SPEAKER_02:And actually that's that's that's true in business as well. Yeah, you know, that phrase inspire others to achieve the otherwise unachievable is very similar, but you're just not putting lives on the line in the same way that you are in the military. Which leads me on to the next question I'd like to ask you, because in in any leadership role, and you mentioned courage earlier, um, and quite often courage in business or in leadership roles that are not in an environment where your life's under threat, you know, when you're in a busy environment, when you're under pressure from your boss or you're under pressure from customers, sometimes that courage of leadership crumbles. And you know, blame game starts and you start thrashing out. And what advice would you have for the leaders listening to this on the best way to lead and keep your courage going when you're under pressure?
SPEAKER_00:You've just put me under pressure now. I'm thinking I think I'll put my money where my mouth is. I always talk about overcoming fear and breaking down the problem. So I'll I'll break down the problem there if you like. Okay. Overcoming that pressure, basically, we're talking about fear of the unknown. Okay. And in my experience, there are two types of fear. There's the the fear that comes from you know, a fear of danger. And danger is very much real, it's something tangible. Fear is just an emotion. Okay. So it could be something like fear of, you know, I'm gonna have be involved in a car crash right now. There's a load of uh nasties over there with lots of guns, and uh, they're about to brass me up and uh and end my life and that of my team, you know, in in the environments that I often find myself. That's that sort of fear that's very much associated with danger, with harm, if you like. Yeah, the other type of fear I see a lot, and I know you guys would have seen it all the time too, and and your viewers as well, it's that fear of failure and fear of ridicule.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's interesting because in both environments, actually, or both types of fear, I would say the uh the way to overcome them are the same. But just to sort of talk a little bit more about that fear of failure, fear of ridicule, my experiences in the military, and then since on the public speaking circuit, you know, I've I've been honored to work with some exceptionally talented people, you know, people with 40-pound brains, you know, men and women that are just absolute super achievers, you know, alpha males and females. And you sort of look at them, and you know, I find myself constantly in awe of them. And then suddenly, you know, I'll see them years later and find that they just disappeared off the radar or something, or you know, they've made a mistake and it's been their uh you know, their undoing. And it's because of this fear of failure and the fear of ridicule. And it's it's such a shame because it's absolutely unnecessary, you know. And I think most importantly, have another plan. You know, I talked about plan and rehearsals earlier on. You know, we we always used to say if plan A fails, remember there's another 25 letters in the alphabet, always have a plan B. I think whether it's that physical fear or that sort of you know, fear of failure, the first thing you've got to do is accept there's an issue, identify what that issue is. Am I actually scared of being ridiculed here? And actually then break it down. You know, has anyone really genuinely got the time to be to be bothered about you know how I feel? Um most people in that environment are way too busy focusing on their own areas of responsibility or concerned that somebody's gonna ridicule them, you know. Yeah, um, it's it's something that's sort of you know, it's it's almost unique to us as individuals, but we we see it as something much bigger than it actually is, you know, it's absolutely unnecessary. I think you've got to rationalize it, you've got to break it down and try and put it into, you know, compartmentalize it almost before you then go to deal with it. In the same way, like, you know, a ship, uh, a cargo vessel has all these different sort of bog head doors, so that if there's a leak, it can isolate and contain it, it can send somebody to deal with that. You know, what it doesn't do is sink the whole ship and the whole thing goes down quickly. You know, I think that's that's really, really important. And I talked about that knowledge and that learning. I think learning something to fluency, if you can do, as a leader, you can't always learn everything. You know, you can't be an expert in every single discipline. That's why, you know, as I would say, you surround yourself with the smart people, with the advisors and so on and so forth, and you listen to and you take that advice. And finally, I'd say breathe. And I'll I'll put this into context if I've got time and if you're you know, yeah, no, yeah, sure. Like I say, I've forest cut my way through my career, but I you know, I was experienced, I enjoyed what I did, I was passionate about it. I love being a soldier and a bomb disposal operator and an officer. Um, in Iraq in 2004, you know, that was one of those sort of tours for me. Where all of those things were tested in the extreme, you know. So it was a very sort of a pivotal part of my my life, if you like. But there was one evening in particular, May the 5th, 2004. Um we were uh, in fact, I've just made up the day there, May the 8th, 2004. And we were out on the ground um in Basra in southern Iraq, dealing with uh improvised explosive devices. We'd done a bomb in the morning, my team and I, a bomb about lunchtime-ish, and then another device in the evening as well. And the uh the robot broke down, so we had to take it to uh to be repaired. Okay, and then we'd been out all day long, and then we were making our way back to uh to our um our accommodation, our camp, which was in one of Saddam's old palaces as it happened. And we were driving back about 11 o'clock at night, and as we were driving through one of the areas in the southern part of the city, we were ambushed. And an ambush is absolutely terrifying. It's it's designed to kill everybody within the target area. And there were eight of us in unarmored vehicles. You know, we were effectively the humanitarian arm of the military, if you like, you know, we were we were people that were there to to try and save lives. We weren't really, you know, lean-mean fighting machines, heartbreakers, life takers, but we were there to save lives. And uh we were all trained as soldiers, we were all capable, and I certainly spent time with the special forces, so you know, knew my way around a uh a weapon system and a rifle. But it was the first time I'd ever actually had to, you know, engage with the enemy at close quarters. And interesting, when you're ambushed, like I say you is designed to kill everybody, and as the bullets started, you know, coming through the uh the vehicle, I remember one went through the side of my helmet, there were grenades exploding all around us. A grenade exploded at the side of the vehicle, and some fragmentation went into my number two, who was driving into his shoulder, you know, he was driving one-handed like this. And I thought, how cool is he? You know, just driving like that in the middle of an ambush. Um when it all happened and kicked off, all of us froze. And I was an experienced officer by this point, you know, but I had always expected myself to sort of you know show some sort of Churchillian leadership in this sort of environment. But instead, I completely froze, and I couldn't understand why, you know. I thought I was a coward or something like that. Um but uh when we sort of discussed it all afterwards and and spoke with the uh the psychiatrist and the specialist who you sort of you know debrief all the soldiers that get involved in this sort of environment and survive, they said we go through exactly the same sort of process, and effectively our our our um limbic system, our muscle memory, it's where we train, where we learn to fluency, everything is stored in there. Our normal day-to-day process in the near frontal cortex, the front part of our brain, is where we sort of, you know, common sense, judgment, um, on the hoof, decision making, if you like, normal conversations. And when we're under extreme pressure, the uh there's a lack of oxygen, a lack of neurosignals flowing to the near frontal cortex, the prefrontal cortex. So we can't function as normal. All we can do is draw upon the limbic system, the muscle memory. So if you haven't trained and practiced and rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed something before, and you're under extreme pressure, then you're going to actually freeze. And it's something that everybody will do if you haven't done that before. So what you've got to remember is that, you know, A, that's a uh, you know, that is a symptom of it. B, as long as you don't get killed, then actually, you know, it will pass and you'll be able to function normally again as the oxygen starts to uh flow normally again and the neurosignals flow to the front part of your brain. And C, if you actually learn something, if you uh plan something, if you go through all of the eventualities, if you you know can ideally do it to fluency, if it's stored in your muscle memory, then when suddenly something comes out of the blue, you know, hopefully it won't be as life endangering as an ambush, but something that just basically sets you off kilter, as long as you've planned it, you thought about it before, it doesn't catch you necessarily off guard completely, then you've got something to draw upon when you're under under extreme pressure. Yeah, so I would say, you know, that's a really, really good way. And hopefully that's a sort of contextualizes all those sort of points I've discussed there as well.
SPEAKER_01:And they're absolutely paralleled to industry and people we could be talking on here who are in commercial roles. Absolutely parallel to that, right? Whether you're presenting to the board or whether you're getting ready for a key sales meeting to make sure you're going to win that deal, all of these things are exactly the same. It's just a different fear, right? Exactly. And context, yeah. In context, environment, different landscape.
SPEAKER_02:But it it's a good point, though, about rehearsing, practicing uh eventualities and breathing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I I have to tell you, Chris, uh, you know, so for those that don't know, it's the first time I've spoken to Chris physically, right? You know, we've communicated online, but and it's a very strange thing perhaps for me to say. But if I look at what you've done and the effect you've had on people's lives and the world in general, I mean, I mean that genuinely, you come across with a lot of humanity and humility. You really do, right? I mean, the human you said right up front, when I talk about war, don't ever forget this is people's lives, right? So you don't, you don't, you know, uh you don't uh glamorize it in any way, right? And you and you're absolutely clear on that. One of the things we've been talking about recently is about how being human is a key part of being a good leader. What do you feel about that?
SPEAKER_00:I I just think you know, when I talked about communication being really important, I mentioned emotional intelligence. Um and I think being human is do you know what it's the most important part of being a person, you know, and that sounds like you know, stated the obvious. But what I mean is, you know, having empathy, having understanding, having compassion. And in war zones, you know, I've been unlucky enough and lucky enough in equal measure to see the best and the worst of human nature because war brings out the very best in people and it brings out the very worst in people. And I've been to a lot of war zones in my life, but I can honestly say with my hand on my heart that in my experience, people are fundamentally good. Yeah, but what you tend to see is you see the better being bought out in people rather than the worst in people, even though you do see both, you know. So I think to be a leader, I don't think you would be a leader if you didn't possess humility and compassion and understanding. And I think if you were and you were, you know, morally defunct of those uh those qualities, I don't think you'd last for very long.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, I think it's a passing fad. Yeah, you'd be surprised actually in in some of the businesses Albert and I have worked in, there are people who've survived quite a long way up, but we won't dwell on that.
SPEAKER_01:But what that says is what carnage have they left in their wake, right? That's that's the difference, right? So they might be labelled as a leader, but that's a different thing.
SPEAKER_00:And what could they have achieved if they'd actually had compassion? Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Or what could their people have achieved, you know, if they'd had that compassion and humility? Yes. I think we Albert, we should move on to the quick fire questions then. We should let Chris kind of uh relax a little bit and uh and then we'll wrap up.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, got a lot of shoot first. So you've got a lot of experience, Chris, but as a leadership role model, is there anyone you would highlight as a leadership role model that's affected your thinking and life?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think so Ranolph Fines um in terms of what he's achieved as an explorer and as a writer. And Al Gore, the man who didn't make president, I was his bodyguard once, and uh one of the most I met him when he was really, really tired, he had no sleep for a few days. I looked after him for for 48 hours non-stop, and uh one of the most inspiring people I've ever met.
SPEAKER_01:Fantastic, brilliant, thank you.
SPEAKER_02:So, and if you were gonna gift a leadership book, other than one of your books, obviously, but if you were gonna get gift a lead a book about leadership to a leader, what book would you gift?
SPEAKER_00:I would say there's a new book out written by the commandant of Sandhurst called Stand Up Straight. That's a pretty good book, and I would say any of the books by Ranolph Fines.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So something else for people to try and remember you and what we've done here today. Have you got a quote or saying of any substance around leadership that you would want to leave with people here today?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the best quote. Just remember when when you're in times of difficulty, when you're in times of extreme stress, extreme pressure, the chips are down and it seems like there's no way out. Just remember that this too will pass. Everything good in your life, everything bad in your life at any given point in time is is just a given point in time. So it'll always get better, it'll always get worse. But just remember, you know, enjoy every minute of it when it's good, and just remember it's going to pass when it's bad. This too will pass.
SPEAKER_02:Great, great piece. I think we'll uh I think that's a perfect place to wrap up, actually. So you know, Chris, that's inspiring. I knew you would be in these conversations. Uh, great stories, great knowledge, and great linkage between what you've done and and what other leaders can take away from this. Um, any final words you just want to say before we let Albert wrap up?
SPEAKER_00:Just you know, thank you so much for having me on. You know, I am um I know you've had some great people on on this uh this show, and I am you know I genuinely don't feel worthy. You know, the Forest Gump uh comment wasn't me being modest, you know, I have to pinch myself. I I do have a normal life with an you know an extraordinary job as perhaps. But I'm very, very grateful. And um, you know, thank you all. And I hope you're you know your viewers are able to take something away from it that's that's beneficial. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Chris, really inspirational, fantastic to have had you here. And I look, we could have spent a lot more time. Um, but thank you very much for what you shared with the audience. Lots of parallels for people to take away in leadership. Um, and it sounds like you've had a fascinating start to your life and plenty more to go. So fantastic. To our audience, thank you very much for listening. Please let us have your likes, your comments, your feedback, your subscriptions, um, and uh and let us know anything else that you'd like us to talk about. But really enjoying what we're doing for you here, guys. Hope we've added value, inspiring current leaders and aspiring.
SPEAKER_02:So goodbye from the leadership detectives. Thanks, Chris, and we'll catch you on the next episode.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thumbleman and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectives.com for all the episodes and more resources and support.