Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
You Are Never Too Small To Make A Difference
Welcome to Season 03 Episode 01 of The Leadership Detectives.
In this episode, we talk about leadership and the importance of diversity with our inspirational guest, Jacqueline de Rojas CBE. Jacqueline is the President of techUK and Chair of the Board of Digital Leaders.
Jacqueline dives into, among other leadership qualities, the need for embracing diversity and change, and altering the way we view setbacks.
Find Neil online at: https://neilthubron.com
Find Albert on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/albert-e-joseph
Find Jacqueline on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jderojas/
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives with Albert Joseph and Neil Fabron. This is the go-to podcast for uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you. In this episode of The Leadership Detectives, we are delighted to be joined by Superwoman, Titan of Tech, Jacqueline Aroja, CBE and personal friend of mine. And an amazing lady who is making a huge impact on the UK tech world, making tech accessible to all, and a champion of women's equality in life. In this episode, we quiz Jacqueline on her clues to great leadership. We've learned loads during the discussion and know you will too.
SPEAKER_05:Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, wherever you are, guys. Welcome back to the Leadership Detectives. It's time for us to give you another dose of uh great information on how to be better leaders. Um, Neil, how are you? Good to see you. You're well?
SPEAKER_03:I'm outstanding, thank you, mate. I'm outstanding. Recovered from a massive tech crash yesterday, which I've managed to recover from. And I'm very excited because that links really nicely into our guest, because I'm uh absol really delighted to welcome Jacqueline DeRoja on the call today, who's a good friend of ours, CBE, president of Tech UK, chairman of numerous boards in the UK. The list is huge. And our second guest, actually, who's also got a Wikipedia page. So welcome, Jacqueline. Lovely to see you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for having me. And I'm not sure I want to be associated with your tech crash, by the way.
SPEAKER_03:No, but I I I guess as as president of Tech UK, you probably get involved in some complex questions like my PC's crash, can you help me, please?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's what your your parents and your and your friends ask you at Christmas.
SPEAKER_03:You know, having worked, yeah, we've all worked in the tech industry. Having worked in the tech industry for years, I used to get so frustrated. People say, Can you just help me with my PC? And I haven't got a clue. I know less than you. And that is still true today. So, so no, really, really pleased to have you here. And we're actually we're honored because the last interview I watched uh Jacqueline doing was with Richie Sunak, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. So that we fit you know, this this feels really special having Jacqueline here uh today talking about leadership. And I know she's got loads of great insight into leadership. So Albert, should we launch in with the first question?
SPEAKER_05:We should, and just a quick mention, guys, why have we got Jacqueline here today? Today is our 50th episode, right? So Neil and I have been going for just over a year, it's our 50th episode, and we wanted someone really special. And Neil has had Jacqueline, excuse the term, in the bag for a while, but it wasn't time to bring her out yet. So today is the day. But who is Jacqueline? So let's go with the first question, right? So, Jacqueline, to many of our guests, we have to say, imagine you're being introduced on stage. You don't have to imagine that. You're introduced onto stage all the time. But if it's your choice about being introduced on stage, who would it be that's introducing you? What would they say about you? And most importantly, what song would play as you came on stage?
SPEAKER_00:Oh my goodness. So, well, I think the song would definitely be uh Alicia Key's This Girl Is on Fire. Yeah, because it's my girl anthem, uh, and it's all about the sisterhood, it's all about the things that I care about, which is I would want to be introduced as an advocate for diversity and inclusion. I have, you know, grown up and worked in the tech industry all my career, and I've had a ton of people help me get through that career journey. We still only have 17% of women in tech, and it hasn't shifted much in the last two decades. So we really need to do more work to uh advocate for gender equality in the tech industry, and perhaps later I'll go into why that matters. But I'd want to be introduced as an advocate for diversity and inclusion. Do you know what? Wouldn't it be lovely if if it was Alicia Keys who was uh inviting me up on stage? That would be amazing. But also actually, someone like Audrey Hepburn, maybe. She was graceful, she was elegant, she was a brilliant actress, but she was also an immense humanitarian. And we don't often hear about that side of her, but she was super generous with um wanting to play her part in making the world a better place. And so I would love for her to perhaps introduce me on stage. I love that.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, Alicia Key's playing in the background, and you're walking on stage, there's a champion of diversity. Fantastic. How I wish I was at that event. It's giving me goosebumps already. So um this is this this podcast is all about uncovering the clues of great leadership, and you've been exposed to leaders in all sorts of different areas of industry, of government, of uh across all spectrums, and I'm sure you've seen commonalities come through of what great leaders do and what poor leaders do. So, and we're focusing on great leadership. So, what what would you say are two of the two or three of the key things that you see great leaders do regularly?
SPEAKER_00:So I suppose coming from my own experience, I would say that one of my uh life lessons was I really believed that you had to be a man to make it in tech. So I had a self-limiting belief around, you know, I had to be a man or behave like an alpha, perhaps not a man because that's unfair to generalization in in male um activities, but but I think I felt I needed to be quite alpha. And I was that terrifying alpha Zilla uh in you know CA when I was there. I was, you know, a very assertive slash aggressive sales leader. And I honestly think it took me 10 years to realize that I was always going to be disappointed, always going to be that angry feminist banging my head against the glass ceiling, not because I was a woman in a man's world, but because I was a woman trying to be a man in a man's world. And that self-limiting belief that you had to be a man to make it was completely wrong, or you had to be alpha in your behavior to make it. So I lacked the authenticity and value system that now informs everything that I do. And so I would say my first life lesson that I really understood and reflected on was that life is a lot simpler when you're being your authentic self.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:And and and also that vulnerability can be your fortress, so sharing that too.
SPEAKER_05:Which is a great message, and it's a message we've heard from a number of other people, Jacqueline. But I I'm keen to just explore a little bit is that now, or do you think that was relevant then as well? Because you've gone through a number of very senior roles, yeah, and Neil and I the comes experience that we've had is maybe there was a different expectation of leaders in days gone by to today. What do you think about that? Do you think that vulnerability and human side is now, or could it have worked better back then?
SPEAKER_00:So I think this speaks to culture, and I think it speaks to the culture of an organization. So where I was at that moment in time, did that work? Would that have worked to be my vulnerable self and authentic self? I think no. When I made the decision to leave, and actually I made the decision to leave because I went for a promotion and I was 30 times more qualified than the person I was competing with, and I didn't get the job. He did. And the reason I didn't get the job was simply because I was told, Jacqueline, we don't put women on the leadership team. So I asked myself, which I always do under times of pressure, you know, where's the miracle here? Because there's always a miracle in any scenario. And I thought, well, at least he told me. Because if he hadn't told me, I would have been banging my head against that glass ceiling for another five years, and that would not have been good. I went to find myself another job in a different company, specifically looking for a culture that would embrace the things that now mattered to me. So the ability to be myself, to bring my whole self to work, to be that more vulnerable leader and more authentic leader. And I found it. So I think it speaks to culture, Albert. You know, if you're looking for a role, it's not just what's what's the job title, what's the brief, what's the salary, what's the location. Most important for me these days, and then is what's the culture and can I be myself in it? And that's important. So I think yes, you could be it then, but no, I couldn't be it there at that particular company.
SPEAKER_03:And that's really interesting. We've heard that about culture. When we we interviewed some millennials around what they're looking for in leadership and the culture that the leaders create in the business was really, really important to them. Millennials Gen Z type uh age groups. But how the one of the things that I'm I'm perplexed about though, actually, so if you are looking for an organization that's culture matches your your your uh beliefs and values and so on, how do you know? How can you find that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I well uh when I interview for a role, I always look at that as a two-way opportunity to ask questions around behaviors, what happens under pressure, you know, is there um is it an autocracy, or are you know, do they give people space to be amazing? And then I double check and reference that with people sideways, lower down, upper, and partners and customers, because that's when you'll see it all shining through. So I do quite a lot of interviewing of my own when I'm being interviewed. I never see it as a one-way street, and I think you've got to invest that time if you're going to get it right. If you're going to really want to spend, you know, big chunks of your life, and let's face it, it is, then it's worth that investment to just make sure you've got that two-way street interview going on.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's fantastic advice for any leader listening to this, is it is it it is a two-way street, you know, the the the company needs you as much as you need them, and I think that's really important, and and to get that right. Um, so you you mentioned so vulnerability and authenticity as two key attributes of great leadership. What else would you say?
SPEAKER_00:So, as a leader now, I would say um behaviors like kindness and empathy really matter if you're going to unlock all the potential of your team. You know, and our job, let's face it, is to take people from you know average to good, good to great, and and and beyond. And if we are going to do that and really understand our teams, we probably have to be more tolerant. And that speaks to diversity as well, because it is our job. Leaders must be accountable for demonstrating tolerance in time, especially under times of pressure, because people do get it wrong. We all have made mistakes, we all will continue to make mistakes, but it's the best leaders who say, okay, well, perhaps there's no failure, perhaps there's only you know, success or learning. And if you're that leader, that's demonstrating tolerance right out of the park. And I think that's really important, especially actually, as we have, you know, a war going on there out there for talent. Uh, you know, we're gonna have to grow our own a lot more, especially in tech, but but in in lots of sectors now, hospitality and yeah, everywhere. So we're really gonna have to be much more open to difference uh and tolerating you know others, others' behaviors and and different ways of doing things, I think.
SPEAKER_05:I I I like your comments there, Jacqueline, about the failure piece, because Neil and I did uh an episode on that not long ago, right? Um do you want to say a little bit more about that? Because we we we also talked about reframing that from failure being a negative experience uh into something more about learning. Did you want to just share a bit more around that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think you know, certainly in tech, uh when when investment goes into an entrepreneurial business, usually investors will not look at a leader or an entrepreneur unless they've had three fails on their, you know, on their CV because you you can't have this airbrushed version of yourself. It's not true. LinkedIn has you believe that we're all just stellar in the way that we traveled and walked our path. And and you know, we don't actually document the zigzags and the ups and downs of the sideways backwards moves. And I think you know, we really need to find a way to honour those scars because that's where we do most of our learning. And actually, I think it's proven that when you've gone backwards, you usually bounce up in your trajectory much further forward after that learn. And so that's where I would see that we've got to perhaps spend a bit more time embracing what that means and that for talent as well.
SPEAKER_03:And I love the word embracing it, and then this is where I struggle a little bit, and I you know I work with lots of different organizations today, and that uh enabling creating an environment where it's okay to fail seems to be really, really difficult in a quarterly driven, shareholder-driven, PE driven, venture capitalist-driven type culture. So, what would your advice be to leaders on on how they can enable and create that environment of enabling people to fail and learn?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, I mean, I think I think firstly, I'm not sure I would use the word fail. Okay, I would probably use the word learn. Uh, I I also think that behaviours matter here. So whenever I've gone into an organization and I've been, I've I generally have gone in as a troubleshooter to create the growth mindset and accelerated scale. And you know, one of the things that I always do is I'm I'm positively deviant, so I'll operate inside a matrix, I'll bend the rules because sometimes the process will not serve the outcome, the new mission. And so it's quite important that that positive deviance is culturally embraced so that people understand they are not slaves to um the process, but much more excited about the mission and moving forward towards that. That's that's probably how they'll get the shortest route to success as a team. So it's subtle, but it's really important that we use that kind of culture to leverage that acceleration.
SPEAKER_03:And it feels like, and we've heard this before, that that leaders who are going to create that environment need to have courage. Because some you might be getting pressure from your board, from your shareholders that you need to, but you actually need to have that courage that says it's okay, failure is okay to fail.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think well, well, you need to have um what I would call you need to have the trust, but you also need to have tolerance, again, that word, where you know what does success look like? Success is of course it's in the numbers, but it can also be in how you're building bench strength. So the strength of your team. It can also be in, you know, actually, this bench strength has created three times the pipeline that we normally have. And therefore, it might look like we've got a bit of a drop now, but actually tracking forward, that's probably the best ratio cover of pipeline we've ever had to sales, and the conversion level is is pretty high. So I think there's context around things that we can do to create confidence and trust that whilst it might not quite look like the right metrics, we will ultimately prevail. And I think we can take a leaf out of um, you know, the Chinese and the Japanese in terms of longer-term outlooks. I know when we're slaves to Wall Street, that's harder, but I do think we, as sales leaders, certainly one of the things I've done first is to create massive injection of investment in the pipeline, in customer engagement, in partners who can, you know, create much more uh much faster routes to market than we can, and creating that one plus one equals eleven everywhere, so that we don't just have the normal right, we've got to churn the sales engine, um, and it's only one critical path. We've got to have multiple arrows in our, you know, in in the field in order to get there faster. Parallel strategies for for acceleration, I would say.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, got that. What what what advice could you give, Jacqueline, to leaders who find themselves, as you say, slaves to metrics that might not be the best metrics. What advice would you give to them as to how to change that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think you have to demonstrate that other things matter as well. So I'm not sure what you do as you say, I hate your metric, I'm not going to do it. But what I think you do do is you add other metrics that really inform what's, you know, what's possible, and you you unlock and demonstrate potential. Usually at board level, we have you know key metrics, but we also look at behaviors and we also look at trends uh up and down. And I think if you can see the energy and culture going in the right direction, then you know there's a lot of tolerance and forgiveness. There's also a lot here to do, Albert, with messaging. You know, bad news should travel fast, good news can wait. Uh, and we seem to do that in the opposite, uh, when we're forecasting, for example, or when we're, you know, we've lost that pivotal deal right at the end, or we've lost a partnership. You know, we need to manage expectations, you know, under, you know, under promise and over deliver always.
SPEAKER_05:I've just written down your quote there, Jacqueline. I'm using that. Bad news can travel, must travel fast, good news can wait. That's that's definitely.
SPEAKER_00:And that actually that goes to that speaks to Neil's point about courage. We absolutely need to, you know, our fear of rejection is so high as humans that we tend not to surface those things sometimes. And courage really matters here, along with curiosity, which is you know, you you are allowed to challenge the higher-ups around you know why the metrics matter so much and why these other ones might also be useful.
SPEAKER_05:That's the value you're bringing as a leader, right? It's to step forward on behalf of your people in your team and and say your piece, right?
SPEAKER_00:Say your piece and give them some air cover, actually.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, air cover. Yeah, that's a um so I'm gonna we're going to take a slightly different angle now because um I read somewhere on one of the many articles and blogs that have been written about you, there was an interview where you were talking about when you were a young leader, and you were talking about so you don't have to think back too far, Jacqueline, for that. But when you were a young leader, and um you took you you took a lot of mentorship and coaching to help you to the words I've seemed to remember were you turned to turn up to be the best you could be. And I think there's a real key learning point in there for any young leaders or any leaders actually about developing, taking time to develop themselves. So yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00:I suffered and still suffer from imposter syndrome, and I always think I'm going to be found out, and I don't I don't know what I should know, or I'm not really the person that they think I am. And actually, it's really interesting. I discovered that what's really useful is to take soundings from other people. We didn't call them mentors or even coaches back then, but I had people who cared about me, and I did feel very much that I could reach out and say, Well, how am I showing up? What footprint do I leave when I operate like this? And you know, what could I do better? There is there is always some self-reflection that you can do, but equally there is a generosity in again, it's a two-way street. You can also be that person for other people. And sometimes, if you're not sure what you're going to get out of mentoring, offer to be a sounding board for someone else, and then you'll see what value you can bring. And mentoring isn't necessarily about giving other people the answers or the benefit of your wisdom. Mentoring is around asking great questions, like you know, if someone turns up with a problem, you know, what options do you think you have here? And just give them a little bit of perspective. And often when you give people perspective, which is looking at themselves outside of their body, if you will, and saying, Well, you know, there she is doing that, you know, what options does she have there? And I think that's it's just really important to be able to do that. But I think, you know, alongside that, mentoring and coaching and self-reflection does matter because you're investing time in yourself, you're not just on the hamster wheel, just doing what you've always done. You're trying to forge a path where you make adjustments that that produce better leadership decisions. And one of the things that happened to me when I went from, I think I crossed the chasm from manager to leader, actually, was when I realized I'd run out of all the answers. I thought, oh my god, actually, I don't know how to do this anymore. This is a whole new level of X.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so I changed my, I literally changed my style overnight because I'd watched someone. And this person, as a leader, I really admired all they did, all they did, and I say all they did because this is not easy to do, they asked questions. They didn't give any answers. And so what's wonderful about that is, you know, I call it curiosity-led leadership. And this is where you can't be found out. So my imposter syndrome completely disappeared. Because I would say, well, okay, we're having this meeting. Can you just let me know what outcome you're looking for here? So you don't go into a meeting blind, you just clarify, constantly clarify. And then you say, Well, how are we going to get there? What are the options? What do you think? What experience have you got? Have you tried this before? You know, world-class question I think is, what are we going to do more of? But crucially, what are we going to do less of? And I use that all the time. And I and I have to say, when you start exercising curiosity-led leadership and bringing those world-class questions to bear, you will never get found out because you're not professing to know all the answers, but you will learn a lot and you'll be much better informed when you come to the decision. Um, and likely you don't have to make the decision because everyone will come to their own brilliant conclusions.
SPEAKER_03:It's it's interesting actually, because a lot of the leaders I coach and mentor feel like they they need to know more, they need to have the all the information. And so again, it comes almost down to courage, to have the courage to just say, look, I don't know everything, and just be that curious leader. Um yeah, I mean, I think that's a great term, actually. I think it's a but on the mentoring piece, I just want to just uh uh ask another question on that. So did you go and ask for mentorship or did people offer it to you? Because I think that's the other barrier, is people feel uncomfortable going and asking someone to mentor them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I definitely went looking.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and one of the reasons I went looking was because I always look like I've got my act together, and actually I haven't, but I do portray that. I'm doing it now, I know that. And I and I but I I do, you know, tend to scan for opinions, you know, just perspectives, because I think if you don't double check often, then you're likely to be what I would call looking inwards, not looking outwards. And I think it's a really important life lesson that you scan outwards, because you're never gonna have all the answers inside yourself, your team, or your organization. And again, it speaks to my passion about diversity, which is you've got to scan, horizon scan for diverse opinions. Otherwise, you are going to do the same old stuff the same old way, and you won't find that acceleration point which changes the trajectory of your business or your plan.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I think it's probably worth um exploring that cock uh that conversation around diversity, actually. Um, because uh yeah, we we actually did a podcast on uh racism, actually, and and which was which was really uh well really insightful for me because Albert was sharing stuff I didn't know and I've known him 35 plus years. Um but when what what should leaders be taking into account when as they're building their leadership teams, as they're looking at their diversity in their business, what what would you could suggest would be the best practice that they should be looking at?
SPEAKER_00:So I think firstly they probably need to understand that diverse teams make better business decisions 87% of the time, according to Gartner. So I think that's number one, from a business perspective, it really matters that we have a diverse set of people across the team. So I take a mental photograph of any company that I work with, of the board, the team below, middle layer, and then people at the field level, and then the customer base. And if you take a mental photograph of that, you think, oh my lord, is it actually reflecting the customer base? Uh, yes or no? And then if you've got a group of people who all look the same, you're very likely gonna have a group of people who all think the same. And that's not going to be probably a high performant team, I would suggest. Now I know it's um, you know, I'd stretching a point to make a point, but I think it's quite important that you just do that mental photograph thing and just check in and say, are we diverse? And then say, Well, you know, why does diversity matter? And I think, you know, with COVID and Black Lives Matter, you know, I think we are seeing the world demand a level playing field for all. And diversity does matter, of course, because it's a noble cause, it is the right thing to do for all the you know, the daughters, the wives, our autistic um colleagues with superpowers, it's you know, it it it it all matters. But secondly, that piece around diverse teams do boost accelerated outcomes because they make better business decisions. But I think in tech, particularly, and we have become much more tech dependent than pre-pandemic, actually, you know, diversity really matters because if an algorithm is going to decide whether you get that place at university, that job interview, or that mortgage, you'd better make sure that the people designing that algorithm are diverse. Otherwise, we're gonna create a world that definitely doesn't include all of us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_00:You know, so I think it matters in tech more than before because we are accelerating so fast our dependence on all things technology. And we aren't accelerating the diversity of people working in tech. And so, you know, and even I, you know, I heard a uh uh uh a story about a doctor who couldn't get into the gym locker the other day because a swipe card wouldn't work, and they took the techies in, they'd changed the swipe card over. Turns out that doctor had been hard coded as a male job title, and that's why she couldn't get into the locker room. And so, but imagine if that happened uh in in um The airline industry in pilot. And the autopilot, you know, couldn't be overridden by a female pilot because they didn't recognize her as a pilot. You know, you can just imagine the consequences. And this is unconscious bias. This isn't hardwired in because we want it to be. It's hardwired in because we just don't know anything else. You know, we just don't see beyond our our own whatever-ness of ourselves. So diversity does matter, and it's really important. And I'm on my soapbox, I know.
SPEAKER_05:No, no, but you you you brought a whole new angle that we've never ever thought about or talked about on how the technology with the unconscious bias could create that. We've always been talking about judgment and people, and so that brings a whole different angle into this. I know you mentioned up front, Jackie, Jacqueline, about the the 17% state uh um stat that you offered, um, two decades on. Where do you think we are on that journey?
SPEAKER_00:Uh we well, there's a lot of people doing a lot of things, and but what's exciting now is that um boards are mandated to have um gender balance on the board. And I believe if you have it at the top, it will cascade down. So I am much more optimistic than I was before. I also think that Black Lives Matter has really helped us because I can tell you, as much as there aren't women in the top of you know, UK PLC as an example, there are certainly very, very few black leaders. Uh, so you know, we also have to make sure that we've got ethnicity uh and all of uh the rest of diversity represented in the companies that that build um services and products that we all use for all the reasons that we've talked about. So I'm feeling optimistic. There is a there are a lot of initiatives, and I think we are working very hard towards how do we create um and inspire opportunities for young girls to enter into tech. And yeah, I've been working with the Girl Guiding Association to create tech badges, uh, so you know, how to stay safe online is the first badge, and then you know, how you you learn about AI and robotics um, sponsored by by some of our tech uh firms. So I'm very excited and optimistic that there are 500,000 girls in this country that we could get to really quickly, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And actually, while you're talking about the girl guys, I was going to ask you about that. So, what what would your advice be for uh junior leaders or lead, you know, it's for people who are aspiring to be leaders and they're thinking that at a young age? What how how could they develop that? What advice would you have for them?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, I certainly think that when it's schools now have a lot of opportunity where mentors go into schools and and they offer their um insights into their personal journey. This is not just about the kids, it's about the influencers. So it's about the parents and the teachers and the people who have touch points in in school classrooms. So I think we all have a part to play. I mean, it starts with let's not paint the baby's room blue or pink, right? Because, you know, frankly, if I see another t-shirt, you know, which says pink one, which says, you know, make the world a prettier place, and the blue one has genius written on it, you know, kill me now. It's just like we have to, as influencers, retailers, take responsibility for how we set our kids off on their aspirational journeys. I do love Barbie at the moment because they've got some astronauts Barbies, they've got tech coder Barbies. They're still Barbies and they're beautiful and and skinny. We need some, you know, some different sized ones. Um, but but you know, at least if we are launching on that journey, and Lego are doing actually a really great job in this. So we we are seeing, you know, the whole uh pink toy thing dissip dissipate a bit, and I think that's great. I do.
SPEAKER_05:Love it. Can we can we just go off a different area? And then Neil and I have got some quick fire stuff, so I'm looking looked up for you, Jim. But just a different thought. If if we look at your careers over the the years, Jacqueline, you've been senior in many roles, but you've you've managed those people directly. So you've given them pay and rations, career responsibility, etc. etc. Where you are today as president of Tech UK, that's a board of people that don't directly report to you, right? So tell us about leadership of a community like that, where you're not responsible for excuse the term, but pay and rations, career, and everything. How is that different? How do you motivate those people to give the best back to the organization?
SPEAKER_00:Do you know it's really interesting? I I stopped being an autocratic uh leader like that. Um, I think probably 20 years ago, but and and then chose to lead through influence, uh, mainly because I felt I got better results when I recruited people to a mission that we were all aligned on, and and this is very militaristic, isn't it? Um, but I I think I strongly believe if you are aligned to the on the same agenda, the same mission, you're not necessarily telling people how to get there, but you are giving people the opportunity to align with the your the same intention as you. That for me creates not only an aligned team, but it creates um opportunity for innovation, for different ways of doing things, for that positive deviance to flourish. I don't care how people get there. I care about collaboration, I care about alignment, I care about alignment of intention. And when you get that, that culturally creates that one plus one equals 11. And I see that happening at Tech UK, where you know my job is to create conditions for the technology industry to thrive. And my job with Rishi Sunak, for example, is to figure out how technology can power up the economy post-pandemic and how we can get behind that agenda to serve the citizens of this country, not to do anything more than that. And I think that's where it starts to really find its feet and find its power.
SPEAKER_05:And is that is that mission and that agenda, is that yours? Or how does that agenda come about?
SPEAKER_00:No, it's community-based. So it's based on the outcomes that serve the interests of all of the members at Tech UK. So whether it's it's um Microsoft or IBM or Google or the SMEs, because we have a very diverse church, um, we very much represent the views of the members, and that's the beauty of a trade body, actually, that it isn't ego-led, it's about the sector. And luckily for tech, it's something that affects every single person in this country, and so therefore, we are also serving the nation's interests.
SPEAKER_05:In fact, in fact, Neil and I know some of the people on your board actually, because we used to work with them, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So it's quite interesting looking at the diversity that you've got there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think what I love about what you've just described there, and just having watched some of the um uh the interviews you've done and the being an ambassador for that organization, is it's leadership. And I I honestly believe this is one of the most important things about leadership is that being passionate about where the organization is going, that vision and and being the spokesperson who's constantly out there talking and and creating that scene, creating that brand, keeping that energy, and and you know, I that's what I've seen from what you you do, that's what you're brilliant at with that is getting that message across and the passion around tech. I mean, I love I love some of the questions I've seen in some of the interviews where you've been really challenged on it, and you've just come back with a great reflective answer. They actually know actually tech is good. This is all good stuff. So I think that that's leadership through passion and vision, which I get at that kind of uh is that something that you see is really key within organizations as well?
SPEAKER_00:Because yeah, it's interesting you mentioned it, Neil, because I've just I'm scribbling down some some thoughts as you say that. And one of the things that really matters for leaders when they need to leave their mark is to be able to land their message, and so you know, hashtag storytelling matters.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh how do you land your story? So let me give you an example. I was talked talking to a number of uh people the other day about you know, we've got to have you know national ID cards and how do we how are we gonna do this? And and you know, when I talk to journalists or to to to people outside of, I never talk about operational things like how are we going to do this? Are we gonna have an ID card? I will always nest it higher in the messaging. I will talk about things like as our dependency increases on tech and we live and work more online, we will need to find a way to establish our credentials safely online. Now that is different from saying we need an ID card, right? Because it could be, it could happen in a myriad of different ways that you know, smarter brains than I can think about. But my job is to take it up a level and to and to take it away from management into leadership, into ambassadorial status, so that you know we don't get lost in the challenge and the barriers and the why nots, and we keep it at the why should we, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, 100%. And actually, I I think this is a lovely place to finish on the kind of before we go on the quick fire questions. And it is that passion around that vision, around taking it to that high level, keeping people focused on where you're going, not the journey, because there's bumps in the road, you might have to go this direction or that direction, but just keep and I think too many leaders focus on the quarter, they they call themselves leaders, but they're focused on the quarter, not further ahead, or you know. So let's shall we go on to a few quick fire questions, Albert? I think are you okay with that? They're not comp they're not difficult ones, honestly.
SPEAKER_05:I'm worried, I am worried. I I would personally love to carry on with Jacqueline a lot more, but I think it's even better that we leave people wanting more. I think that's even better. So, quickfire. Um, Jacqueline, who would be your leadership role model?
SPEAKER_00:My leadership role model, um, I think it would probably be the CEO of Microsoft. And the reason I say that is because he has made it possible for culture and values to inform every decision that that company makes, and that everyone has got permission to make choices and decisions that um they're informed by their values and and those of the company. And I have to say, they have prevailed and done so well under pressure, and so I really admire that kind of courageous leadership in and his vulnerability actually in allowing that to happen and and and be pervasive in the culture. That's it's so inspiring.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting, brilliant, thank you. Excellent, thank you. So, uh, what leadership book would you gift? If you were gifting a book to someone who's a leader, what would you gift?
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, I have got a book here which is called Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez, and it is a brilliant book on diversity, why it matters, and all the hidden bias that we have in our world, like, for example, you know, police stab vests are still built for humans without breasts, you know. Um they still perform um experiments on male mice, and that means that dosages for women are way too high. You know, it's so I think it's just so interesting to just check in on hidden bias. So that would be my leadership book is is a diversity one.
SPEAKER_03:We'll put that in the notes of the podcast.
SPEAKER_05:There's lots for people to take away from what you've already told us, but if is there just one quote or saying relating to leadership that you'd like to leave with our audience?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think um you're never too small to make a difference, and I think that's just probably the biggest life lesson I ever learned. And I learnt it because I met the Dalai Lama, and it's his quote actually. He says, if you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito in the room. And it's just so, you know, I think about that every time we are asked to play our part, or you know, even in diversity and inclusion, as you would expect me to say, but you know, people ask me, well, what can be done about it? And I don't think the cavalry's coming. I don't think government's going to solve it on their own, or companies are going to solve it, or some great diversity leader is going to solve. I think we all have a part to play in stretching our own, the our the elasticity of our own tolerance when it comes to meeting people who are different from us in terms of the way they work, eat, sleep, you know, which culture they come from. If we all adjust by two millimeters our tolerance in in when we meet them, then I think we will create a world overnight that is much more inclusive and embracing of diversity. So I would say that that's important. Absolutely agree.
SPEAKER_03:You're never too small to make a difference. I like that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I I I was gonna ask another question, but I think we'll leave it there. I think that's a brilliant uh place to leave it with that that that great quote. Um, so look, Jacqueline, from me, you know, we I've known you 20 years. It's fantastic to be able to have this conversation with you. Really appreciate you coming on and sharing your your uh you know your thoughts on leadership with us on this podcast. Really appreciate it, so thank you.
SPEAKER_05:Jacqueline, I've known you for I've known you 40 minutes and it's been outstanding.
SPEAKER_03:Um you actually met Jacqueline at our wedding, actually.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, did I?
SPEAKER_03:You sat next to her at our wedding, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No way, but I've no way, I can't believe that I didn't know that. Yeah, I thought you knew that. No, no, okay, which I was obviously in a pinning. I've obviously I was obviously in awe of your wedding.
SPEAKER_00:There was a lot going on.
SPEAKER_03:But uh so yeah, there was a lot going on, exactly. So uh please subscribe, please leave us comments, please uh uh download uh and and and subscribe to the the podcast. Great to have so many of your the thoughts and comments as we put this out. So really appreciate that. Uh it's it's been great to have Jacqueline. I know we're gonna have lots of feedback and comments on this one as well. So thanks and speak to you again soon. All the time. Jacqueline, great to be with you. Thanks every so much. Good luck.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thabron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectives.com for all the episodes and more resources and support.