Leadership Detectives
Leadership Detectives
Matrix Management: Leading Teams That Don't Work For You
Albert and Neil sit down to discuss how Matrix Management can empower leaders to get the best out of workplace support teams.
Find Neil online at: https://neilthubron.com
Find Albert on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/albert-e-joseph
Welcome to the Leadership Detectives with Albert Joseph and Neil Fabron. This is the go-to podcast uncovering clues about great leadership. If you are a leader today or an aspiring leader, this podcast is a must for you.
SPEAKER_00:In years gone by, a leader may have owned all the resources and the personnel that they had responsibility to lead. But these days, matrix management is probably more common than direct ownership. So today, Neil and I spent a short time discussing the challenges that this brings for a leader and how to get the best results out of a team in this very common situation. We hope this time that we spent together here gives you some good insight, suggestions, and food for thought. Enjoy.
SPEAKER_02:And we're live. Welcome to another episode of the Leadership Detectives. Here we are in Albert's front room. Hey doing, mate, good to see you. You're well? Yeah, you're great. We've just come back from the golf course and we've been talking about leadership for the last four hours and we've been having a game of golf. So uh we're delighted to be joining you today for another one of our episodes. And it wasn't that great today, was it?
SPEAKER_00:It wasn't that great today, but Neil hasn't hit a ball for 10 years before, or 15 years last time we played. This time you haven't hit a ball for about two months. He still kicked my ass, guys. Still kicked my ass.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I think you're just you're just very kind of chat. It's just great being out. Beautiful days, great being out.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so what are we talking about today? Today, I mean, we've been talking a number of times. We've touched on how you manage people, but those people may work for you. But then we've also got the environment which is very typical of today, which is what we could call managing without authority, managing people for whom you don't have personnel responsibility.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, great. Or matrix management. Matrix management, which is again so so prevalent in today's organizations, and it's unbelievable. All of all the leadership teams I coach, all the leaders I work with, this topic comes up over and over and over again. Yeah, you know, the frustration of support organizations not doing what I want. Yeah. Why aren't they? Why don't they understand? Why aren't they supporting me? How and the question is, how do I get them to understand? How do I lead teams that don't work for me, where I can't um manage them by telling them what to do? Now we've obviously worked in an environment like that before, yeah, and we've had to work our way through. And I had the frustrations, I've lived it personally, you've lived it. So, what what would what kind of tips have you got that we could share with the leadership uh community here?
SPEAKER_00:The thing that's that resonates with me is you and I grew up in a world where we always owned all of the function that worked for us, but gradually people started taking people away and then we had to manage that. And one of the things I think we did that I think is really important to do now is just pretend they still work for you. Yeah, just assume they work for you. The fact that they report on in the company HR system to someone else doesn't have to bear any relation to the fact that they're adding value to your project, your mission, your goal, your environment.
SPEAKER_02:And I so and I gr 100% agree with you. Yeah, because actually that's what I used to do, and that's what I when I'm coaching people or mentoring people, yeah, that's kind of where we get to. Is if they're important to your objective, important to your mission, important to what you're trying to achieve, then bring them in, include them. They're part of the the organization. They're part in the military, actually, you have lots of support functions. Yeah, so you know, the infantry, they might have, you know, they have to interface with the signals, with the artillery, with the mortar platoon, with the logistics. Yeah, but what they have is they pull them all into the leadership group and they all understand what the mission is, they all understand what the and they're all part of the building the plan, yeah, and being part of the success going forward.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's really interesting, actually, because we've gone through this a number of times, right? What is the formula for successful leadership? Have a vision statement, make sure you're including your team in that, good communication, giving them feedback, um, handling difficult conversations. Where are those things different just because they don't report to you? Why are they different?
SPEAKER_02:And I think the frustration comes from well, I've told them what to do, and they're not doing it. And they're not doing it, you know. It takes weeks to get pricing out, it takes weeks to get contracts out. And I was working with a guy yesterday, uh, and this was a big frustration as a senior sales director. And and I said, Well, that's because they're stupid, aren't they? They're stupid, they're lazy, and they just come to work to make your life hard. Yeah, and he said, No, I don't believe that. I said, Well, that's what you just said to me. Yeah, yeah. So, so what could what could someone do to help them understand a bit more about what's going on inside those organizations?
SPEAKER_00:Um well, first of all, it's about communication, right? Making sure you're letting them know that they play a role and that they add value to the whole picture. I remember when I worked with a team, and one of the things we had to do was go and see the support function, which they decided to move offshore.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So we went out to that country and we sat down with them and we got the flip chart up. And I remember drawing this chain, and I drew links in the chain. I said, let's make each one of these a function. So, what's that first link there? And typical of this team, feeling they were less important, said, That's the salesman. Okay, so that's primary. What else have you got? Well, that's the delivery function, and that's the and that, and I said, Guys, where are you? Oh, yeah, and then there's us, but we're over here. No, this cannot function if this chain breaks and you're in the chain, right? Okay, which is the most important link? And they said, Well, clearly it's the sales. Really? So if we break that link, it falls apart. Yeah. What about if we take you out of the chain and it link breaks? And they went, Oh, yeah, guys, it's all equal. In the scheme of making it work, it's all equal. Because they get paid more, because they're in front of the customer, because they do a job that you feel is is adding more value to the company, doesn't change the fact that it needs it all to work together. And I think that's the piece you've got to bring across to them.
SPEAKER_02:And so 100%. I you know, I've done that personally, I've done it with other companies, is make sure you understand the whole process where everyone fits in and their contribution to it. Yeah. Where what their contribution is. I think the other thing that works really well, and again, I was working with someone a couple of weeks ago who was really struggling with how to get the most out of people who didn't work for him. And I just said, Well, how are they measured? Yeah, what's important to them? What are their leadership teams? So, in a matrix organization, there's a line of management, there's a leadership. What are their leadership team asking of them? Yeah, what are their KPIs? How could you? This was a sales director again. How could you, as the sales director, help them as a support function be more successful?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Or make their job easier rather than harder.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:If it how could you get closer to them? And actually, with the conclusion he came up with was actually what I need to do is I need to go and understand them a bit more. I need to get in their shoes and need to understand and ask that question. How can I support them to be more successful? And I think that it definitely works because I've done it. Yeah. But that I would highly recommend if you want to succeed in a matrix organization, understand what's important to people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So something that that leads on from that, and I wrote it down while you were talking was about we're talking about what a leader needs to do to make that work in a matrix organization. What about getting the motivation right in those people? What tips can we offer about getting their motivation right? Not what we're doing, but how do we get them motivated?
SPEAKER_02:And what's that's a really interesting question. Actually, I can't remember who I was talking to, but very similar conversation with someone. Because in any matrix organization, people are having to work with different departments. Yeah. So how do you make your department the easiest, most fun, uh, most inclusive group of people to work with? Because people come to work and they like working with people. And if you're the fun organization, if you're the part of the business that helps them be more successful and includes them in events, includes them in meetings, uh it makes them part of the recognition as well as your own teams. Yeah, then I think that's how you raise the motivation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think it's a really important one that you mentioned around the fun piece, guys. Don't think because you make anything you do fun, and you you make jokes and you might make it lighthearted that you're taking your business any less seriously. You don't have to be miserable at work to take your business seriously. You don't have to not smile and not joke to not have the hardest drive to deliver the best results for the company. Yeah, you could still do that, the two fit together.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, well, uh absolutely, and and people react to the way you treat them. If you treat people who don't work for you like they are suppliers, and you're telling them, I want this out of you, you know, why aren't you delivering? And you're shouting at them. Yeah, I was there was someone I was working with the other day. So I'm constantly having to escalate these people. And I thought, well, they're never gonna want to work with you if you're constantly escalating them, aren't they? Because every time you escalate them, they're getting beaten up down their chain. So, so why would they want to, other than uh avoid your wrath? Yeah, that's not a way of getting someone inclusive. Yeah, so um, yeah, being make don't treat if you treat someone badly and treat them like a supplier, then you're gonna get that in return. Yeah. And so that you're not gonna get the commitment, you're not gonna get the extra hours or going the extra mile, yeah, that you really need from great support functions, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But that's a reality, right? Support functions, shared services, the world of matrix management is here now. Is it here to stay? I don't see why it wouldn't be, right? So that's a reality. So if you can learn how to manage people where you don't have responsibility for their salary, for their awards, for their recognition, for their bonuses, you've really managed to grow up leadership. Because that means people are following you because they want to follow you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But but come back, let's talk a little bit more about the vision piece, right, Neil, because I think that's really key, right? Yeah. What about vision setting and getting people on board when they don't report to you?
SPEAKER_02:So I think I think you kind of you you you you're asking the leading question because because you you know the answer is clearly if setting a vision for your team is important, it's important for your whole team, yeah, which includes the the uh the people that don't work for you. If being clear on yeah what good looks like on the mission of the objectives, on the KPIs, it's including everybody in that process, yeah, even those that don't work for you. In fact, even more probably as important, if not more important, those who don't work for you. So they're all part of building that picture.
SPEAKER_00:We were talking about it in prep, right? And one of the things you said was look at it from the point of view of the people, right? So let's do something here. Let's look at it from your own point of view. If you're part of a team, a leadership team, but you don't know where that whole team is going, what's that like to be working in a vacuum of your own? Now put that onto these people that you're talking about. So let's come back to the fulfillment function. Do the fulfillment function care about the fact that you have to bring in X amount of revenue in the quarter or that you have to win so many deals in the quarter? Yeah. Why don't they care? Of course they do. Wouldn't it be exciting then when somebody said to them, What do you do for a job? Well, I support bringing in X amount of revenue, yeah. Not I raise invoices every day.
SPEAKER_02:So I love this. I think I've told this story before on the podcast, but when uh John F. Kennedy was at the space center when they were doing the space mission, yeah, and he was going up to people saying, What do you do? What do you do? What do you do? And he went up to the janitor and said to the janitor, what do you do? Yeah. And he was expecting to say, Well, I keep the place clean. And he said, I'm putting a man on the moon. Yeah. Yeah. And you think, well, that's just that's because he's part of the mission. Yeah. He's he's the janitor, he's making sure everything functions so that everybody else is able to. So wherever you fit in that, so long as there's that vision, the leader can set the vision in doesn't matter whether people report to you or not. One one topic I wanted to just touch on because I've not experienced this, but you may well have done, is because businesses now have to be agile, they have to shift, they have to set up teams very quickly, drop people in. Yeah. Is I don't know if you've experienced where you've you kind of get dropped in as the leader to a team that you've never led before, never met before, and they don't work for you, but you've got to deliver a result, a project of whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Have you ever experienced that? Personally, very recently. Very recently, yeah, right. So, how do you handle that? How so as the leader being dropped in, how do you bring everybody along, even though they don't report to you? So you can't sit down with them and have career conversations with them. Well, I suppose you could, but so how do you handle that?
SPEAKER_00:I I the first thing, and this is a reality for me, the first thing is you've got to respect that team for who they are today. That team was functioning before you got here, right? Unless they were complete shambles, they were functioning. So respect that team, right? Also now, and it is a style of mine, I now see myself as a member of that team. Not just the leader of that team, I'm a member of that team. Right. So I've got to go with them. But then once I'm part of that, now I can start looking at how do I put my mark on it and how do I bring my experience and where I've added value before into that team. What contribution do I bring to that team being more successful than they are today? So I've got to look at myself as serving that team. For me, that's really important.
SPEAKER_02:And so, which is an interesting way of looking at it and clearly works, is so you're dropped into a team or into a mixture of people that weren't a team before, and they kind of they they need to accept you as a leader. So, how do they accept you as a leader, and how do you get your um your vision and get them engaged and motivated and when you've got no authority?
SPEAKER_00:I I think it's about small wins, by the way. I think it starts off with you demonstrating where you can add value in challenges. So I'll tell you, in a situation I'm in now, people have come to me with the need to escalate something. They need to see that I can make a difference. They asked me to get involved in an escalation, and if that escalation goes nowhere, then what's the value I'm bringing to the team? But if I can make that escalation move to move forward, then they can respect the fact that that's one of the contributions I make. And it's happened to me very recently, right? Yeah, and it is a bit of a I'm glad I moved it forward. Because if I didn't, did I just demonstrate I'm not of value to the team? That isn't the only reason I'm there, but it has got to demonstrate that if you if they put that card down, because I say to them, if you ever need me, call on me. Well, I've got to demonstrate that I walked the talk, right?
SPEAKER_02:So what you'd done there is you're earning the trust. Correct. So you're not telling people, trust me, no, trust me, I'm your leader. Yeah. And you're not using your pop pips on your shoulder or your stripes to say, you know, I know this stuff because I'm more senior than you. You're having to earn the right. Yeah. Earn the trust, earn the right, earn the authority. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting way of looking at it.
SPEAKER_00:And it's not an overnight process, right? Because I think, look, everybody's got to play it their own way. But I think what wouldn't work, in my estimation, would be to arrive on site and say, right, here's how we're going to do it. Now I'm here. Right? From now on, we're going to do A, B, C, and D, we're going to run it like this. It's going to happen. I don't think that's the best way to bring a team on board. All right. Other people might see something different. The team might be looking for that clear direction.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, there might be situations like an emergency situation where you need to step in, take ownership, take control. But you're still probably some inclusive there. And you're still going to paint a vision. You're just going to paint a very quick vision of what needs doing and why it needs doing. And anybody got any input? Right, let's get on. So there might be situations like that. But I get the what I like about that is earning the trust. So imagine taking that into a classic matrix management business environment where you've got delivery, you've got sales, you've got uh sales support, you've got finance, you've got contracting. Imagine, and the sales director is the one who's shouting the loudest because he wants to get his contracts through, get his prices through. Imagine if the sales director switch their thinking to how can I earn the right, earn the trust, earn the authority of the support teams, yeah, so that when they support me, yeah, they what no, so that they want to support me, so that they are part of the success process rather than the block in the success process. Imagine that mindset shift. Yeah. I think I've learned something there that I actually I'm going to start using some of that in my coaching. I think I think that's a really key point.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But it's not something you can just apply without standing back, listening, learning, and deciding how and when it's time to apply. There's a patience game to have here as well, right?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And wouldn't a great way of earning the trust be go and sit alongside someone and say, just take me through your job. How hard is it to get a price out? How hard is it to raise a contract? How hard is it to deliver this contract? Let me just sit with you. Let me just walk in your shoes for a day. Because by walking in their shoes, you're earning the right to have a view, then, rather than just beating around the eggs and not delivering what you want. So maybe there's a maybe that's a way you could do it.
SPEAKER_00:Let's just let's just break the team down a bit as well, right? We're saying team, one unit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But assume that that team has been performing a success and function to a level. Probably within that team, there's already some seniority or some hierarchy. I think the other thing is you've got to have respect for that. You can't come in and just pull the rug from under those people who've been making that work, who probably may have the respect of some of the other members, and you can't come in over the top of that and just railroad that. Is that fair?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think I'm I'm I'm thinking of a scenario and that I was just popped into my head in the military. You typically get a young officer comes in and they've got a very uh experienced senior sergeant that work, but they work for them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So that's slightly different. Um, so yes, you you you've got to then use that authority and that experience to pull in to help shape the whole vision, the whole mission, the whole picture going forward.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so now you're trying to earn the trust of those individuals in a different way as you are from the rest of the team, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, by bringing them in, by making them by not just making them feel valued, because they are valued, because their experience and knowledge is valued. Yeah, so that's a yeah, because if you railroad over people who are experienced, you know what's going to happen.
SPEAKER_00:There's there's an analogy I hear here one day, guys, and it might work, it might not work. If there's a candle burning in the room, lighting that room, and you light another candle, does it make the first candle darker? So you you coming in doesn't need to take anything away from that person, right? Sometimes people think you coming in at senior level now squashes the strengths of those other people. It doesn't need to, it's an addition, it makes the room even brighter, but it didn't make them any darker. And and you need to think that through. You know, maybe your job is in fact to remove any of those layers and to make them all equal, but I doubt it. If you've got a team that's functioning, adding you in just makes it even stronger.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because maybe you'll bring in a different dynamic. In a team that I've come into, the dynamic I am is the connection to the exec management, which the current leaders in the team didn't have and don't want to have. Right? So I bring in that extra layer and I'm that linkage.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think um, yeah, I think that is, I think, well, it's clearly it's I love the language of the connect of the candle because one candle has one candle light, two candles have two candlelight. If you can bring others in and get them light a light as well, so all of the support functions coming in, everybody's in that, then suddenly you've got a very bright room.
SPEAKER_00:And you've got people covering each other, right? If one candle has a problem, there's others to keep it going.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's really cool. There's a lot you could do to do cover each other rather than blame. Well, it was his fault, is his fault, it's his fault. So that's because that's what happens if you don't include people. So I think you know, as we kind of pull this together now, yeah. Matrix management, agile management, uh, leading organized teams that don't work for you is a way of life and it's gonna it's not gonna change going forward. And leaders need to find a way of making that happen. And hopefully there's some clues in what we've just been talking about there that will help with that very real situation of great leaders now and going forward in the future.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, I'm I'm gonna leave my final comment on this in a belief that I've got that might not work for everybody. But I do think leaders are there to serve their teams, not just to govern them. You are there to govern them. That is part of your role. But part of your role, in my belief, is you're also there to serve them, right? You're there to play a role. And I love something like looking at a Formula One pit crew, right? Everybody's got a job to do that has to fit together. Is one senior than the other? Yes, they are. But does it mean that you could function without one of them? No, you couldn't, right? Yeah, so I think you know, think about that. Because you do a bigger job doesn't mean you do a more important job, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's a really good point. Formula one's a great example because everybody has equal status. Yeah, everybody has equal rights to say, you know, this went well, this didn't go well, this could be, you know, whether it's the driver saying, you know, this could be better on the engineering. So the engineer is saying, actually, you could have taken that corner better. Yeah, you know, and all of it is feedback, learning, and everybody's part of that. And they don't all work for you know one person.
SPEAKER_00:So the guy who took the cover off the tire is more important, is less important than the guy who put the tire onto the car, right?
SPEAKER_02:Or is he? No, exactly, because one doesn't happen without the other. So so that's really key, right? So you cannot survive without everybody working together. And as great leaders, great leaders, it doesn't matter whether they work for you or not, people want to follow you. Yeah, and I think that's probably a good place to leave it. Yeah, absolutely. So great to see you today in the in the living room here. Great to be here. Uh, and look forward to our next catch-up on the next episode.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've got some guests we're going to be introducing, we've got other guests coming along, or you're gonna hear from Neil and myself directly, just the two of us. But good to see you here. I look a bit chunky on that screen actually.
SPEAKER_02:No, you don't. I didn't maybe it's just wide-angled lens in that. But I think so. Any comments, any feedback, any anything you'd like us to cover around leadership, please let us know. Uh it's great to hear people listening to this from all over the world. I was talking to a guy in the US yesterday who's listening to it. There's someone in Canada we know who's listening to it. Yeah, it's great to hear. So please leave us some feedback because it keeps us motivated. Indeed. Great to talk to you guys. Cheers, baby, too again.
SPEAKER_00:All the best. Yeah, cheers. Take care. Thank you for listening to the Leadership Detectives with Neil Thabron and Albert Joseph. Please remember to subscribe, give us your comments and your feedback. Please also visit leadershipdetectives.com for all the episodes and more resources and support.